Could anyone out slug young Foreman?

What makes it funny is he was virtually the first one to utter the words (essentially) “Ray Leonard needed secret fights for the ring rust not sparring” as a counter point. “Doh”

 

George Kimball - Did it feel like a real fight?

“Yes,” said Leonard. “Except I didn’t get paid.”

 

I included Leonard’s prep as it was obviously relevant to the question of ring rust and the claim that Foreman didn’t suffer from same when he fought Lyle. Perfectly on point.

You introduced the contention as if someone here stated/implied that Leonard’s prep was interpreted as some form of cheating. No one here did imply or state same.

I appreciate your answer re ring rust. Thanks.

Agree that it’s not perfectly quantifiable but think it would always exists and in no mean measure after a prolonged hiatus and lack of actual fights, notwithstanding gym work otherwise.

And that’s before analysing if the fighter in question had even utilised gym training to best/optimal advantage.

It doesn’t seem Foreman made any special efforts if much effort at all in training going into the Lyle fight - and, FWIW, Foreman himself said that he was rusty and needed more actual fights to properly tune himself up.

 

Ah gee. Again?

As described, for all intents and purposes, they were as close to real fights as one can have.

You’re stuck on the head gear and smaller gloves fallacy - ignoring that Ray himself didn’t wear same.

For Ray, they were as good as real fights, with Leonard being further handicapped by his opponents advantages in respect of said apparel. Again, this isn’t rocket science.

Yes, you are in the wrong thread when you want to bang on about any alleged contention that Ray cheated in his prep.

I didn’t bring up SRL vs Hagler. You did.

I addressed Ray’s prep for Hagler, as it clearly related to the question of ring rust - ring rust that Foreman clearly exhibited against Lyle - with someone else in denial of that fact because their primary agenda is and has always been to irrationally bang on Foreman.

No, I don’t get to dictate parameters but I’ll call it when someone has brought up something totally out of left field that has nothing to do with the discussion at hand - which is exactly what you did.

Not to overly accomodate the digression and a brief answer will suffice - but who exactly has ever claimed that Leonard’s prep and however way he chose to prep somehow constituted “cheating”?

 

And, your point is?…..correct, you don’t even know.

Ray’s recapture of himself was unprecedented - not the “as you go” recapture that you claim is simply achieved via hard sparring.

Was anyone saying that some hard sparring would be enough to bring Ray back to or near enough to what he once was? No, no one was saying that.

I’m sure they accepted that Ray would train “as you go” but also understood that he would carry rust without any real fights under his belt over the preceding 3 years.

Double “Doh”!

 

OK FINE THEN. I'll take the 280lb version with modern nutrition, weightlifting AND steroids.

 

All that popcorn fake muscle he’ll never lift deers the way he used to…

 

I don't know what to tell ya man. If I make Jeffries any bigger he's gonna look like veiny peanut with hands. Surely Foreman can't cope with a 280lb roided monster?

 

The right way is to leave him “small” and talk about how big he hypothetically could be, the more vague and bone structure centric your argument the better.

 

I was thinking that Jeffries' boilermaking abilities could be brought up as a kind of a counterweight to Foreman's cow-lifting exploits. You have got to have big, strong bones to make boilers! Industrial grade bones. Modern boxers don't have such beautiful thick bones.

 

Oh that may be true… BUT how many people has Jeff mugged?

 

You're right. Without "mugger strength" Jeffries doesn't really stand a chance. I was foolish to even consider it.

 

Thanks for this man. Just a couple of points. You're using Chuvalo in comparison to Holmes? Chuvalo? Holy moly. Do you think Larry Holmes would take the same kind of beating in a brawl as a one dimensional one paced fighter like Chuvalo? Snipes? Snipes hurt Holmes, so what? Does that define him? He was only stopped once in all of his fights and that was by one of the quickest and most efficient hitting heavyweights ever. Using Snipes as a rod to beat Holmes with is like using Lyle to beat Foreman with. Holmes beat Snipes. He beat Shavers. And Formean beat Lyle after an up and down battle that showed his heart and his chin were top notch. Now, x beats y, so x must beat z doesn't work in boxing, but you seem determined to play this game. Would Holmes have that kind of up and down war with Ron Lyle? Maybe, but i don't think so.

Man, I enjoy shooting the breeze about real or imaginary boxing matches, but I enjoy doing so civilly. You have been anything but civil in your protestations, so I'm going to leave this one and politely agree to disagree. It's been an interesting discourse but I fear this conversation will only now go one way, so, allow me to wish you peace, love and happiness and hope you have a wonderful day. Px

 

Eddie Futch agrees with you. But, what would he know?

Eddie Futch, who trained the last man to beat Hagler (Willie Monroe, 1976), says, yes, it is possible for Leonard to beat Hagler. “Leonard has a chance if he can go the distance. He knows how to fight Hagler, to box him, counter him and give him angles. He should not elect to punch it out with Hagler.”

Duran gave Hagler trouble, Futch says, because Hagler overlooked his tremendous boxing skill. That is how Leonard must fight Hagler.

“But those five years of inactivity,” Futch insists, “that will be the major factor. Things are always a little different when you finally get into the ring. He’ll wonder why the things that worked in the ring aren’t quite on the money in the ring now. Suddenly, you can’t quite get out of the way of all those little punches.”

Futch agrees with almost everybody else that, “Five years ago, this had a chance to be a great fight. Leonard had a chance to outbox him, outspeed him. I don’t think that kind of speed exists today.”

 

Eddie Futch on Foreman - Tyson

"Mike Tyson cannot fight going backwards," said Futch. "Holyfield showed that. And George would have pushed him back."