Could anyone out slug young Foreman?

I personally believe so, as long as the fighter stays fit, spars regularly and against good opponents not punch bags.

Of course it doesn't prepare you for 'the event', but I would class that as a mental intangible imo. There are boxers who fought regularly who were never ready for big events no matter what they did.

 

Also, my final opinion on the ring rust topic is that it exists (obviously - it's pretty apparent when a fighter has it) but that it's more a combination of several factors rather than just being out of action for a while.

Not sure how this thread about Foreman brawling got to this point @JohnThomas1 Another day at the ESB office.

 

Yeah that's why regular "events" are beneficial. There's no protector in the ring in where as in sparring the A side has a safety net. As soon as Greg Page dropped Tyson in Japan they ushered him out. If you cut in sparring they stop before it gets worse. How often do they put a count on a guy decked and then let him go on when solidly hurt? Sparring is much more of a controlled environment that the event. There's no bail out on the night. It's no holds barred for better or worse until there's a winner or the fight is finished.

When guys like Foreman and Futch bang on about rust and the challenges of not having fought for long periods of time they have it right, for mine. I'd seen dozens of fighters claim their timing was a bit off and they were rusty even after winning fights when there's no critical need to.

You also point out the best sparring is against good opponents and they are not always readily available.

 

Yeah, gotta love the ESB office hahahaha

 

First of all, the axiom is "no one comes forward aggressively on the front foot attempting to slug with Foreman and survived".

Somehow, this was qualified with "Lyle was the only powerful slugger his size he beat in a slug fest" when that was never the axiom. The axiom is that anyone in general, regardless of size or punching prowess, is going to be going through hell fighting Foreman in a slugfest.

Frazier could hit hard, and he tried coming forward aggressively against Foreman and was KOd twice, but for some reason his name is always left out. Likely because for some reason on this forum, this win is often downplayed as if Frazier was some ancient, feather fisted has-been who had no business being in the ring with him. It's the singular, primary reason Cus D'Amato was so confident no one could beat Foreman fighting aggressively coming forward in the first place.

Now, if you don't want to accept the original axiom, that's fine. No one is saying this is a doctrine of boxing you must process before being allowed to discuss the sweet science. But to have doubts Foreman should be the favorite in the vast majority of hypothetical slug fests because he WON an extremely grueling battle after 14 months of rust and no tune ups is a very strange argument to make no matter how you slice it.

Here's a thought: name me a big puncher who:

-had no tune ups
-faced someone their own size who could crack
-got off the floor to win

 

Usyk could do it. There is a huge gap in fundamentals between the two. Foreman would get hit with everything and crumble.

Fury could also do it.

 

I think Foreman's boxing skill gets a bit underrated while his slugging is overstated. He definitely had more to his arsenal than that.

 

Good point - if Tyson used the same plan he had for Wilder he’d smother George into submission pretty fast - George would look like a different species the size difference would be crazy… wait, wait no George has that 70s Mugger frame or something they’re roughly the same size in theory…

 

When did Usyk win a slug fest against a big puncher?

 

It’s not the destination that counts, it’s the journey. The Road Trip has brought us all closer together..……

 

Excellent point. Chuvalo was obviously more well-versed in slugfests, whereas Holmes greatest advantages are being thrown out the window in this scenario. Even in his prime, his defense could be quite ordinary at times. He would frequently keep his hands low, and always dropped his hand after throwing that left lab. For someone who was supposedly immune to the left hook like everyone claims, he was sure getting nailed with an abundance of them by Weaver. He also got caught by a powerful but extremely limited puncher like Shavers.

In this scenario, you're limiting his defense even more. No more staying on the outside using that beautiful jab to pick his opponents apart. No more stepping out of range to evade blows. His head movement was basic at best. It certainly wasn't consistently done enough, or even good enough to do him much good in a slugfest with Foreman.

You're being intentionally naive. I'm showing you that obscure names could hurt Holmes so he'd definitely be vulnerable to Foreman who was better than Snipes in every way..... And this would be amplified if he tried to fight Foreman in his wheelbarrow.

You keep acting like Holmes had this indestructible chin, that it would magically be able to take anything Foreman threw at iy, and it's simply not true. It didn't even take power of Shavers' caliber to hurt him. He was knocked down by Snipes. Hurt and nearly knocked out by Weaver (arguably knocked down as well). And those are pretty much the only punchers he fought in his prime aside from Cooney.

Truth be told, his durability is a lot more similar to someone like Louis, than someone like Chuvalo.

Yes after having his head nearly taken off. Do you honestly think if he'd slugged it out with him from bell to bell, he would've won? I'm not going to knock his durability for getting knocked down by Shavers. It does show however, there were cracks in his defense. Shavers was likely the most powerful fighter of all time, but let's not kid ourselves. He wasn't particularly skilled. He never should've caught Holmes like that in the first place.

Both a shot Ali, and Bob ****ing Stallings of all people were able to get through a fight with a younger prime Shavers without getting caught like Holmes did.

No, he wouldn't. Because he'd have Futch in his corner, and not someone like you to tell him "Hey I know this guy is notoriously easy to outbox, and you're the perfect guy to give him fits and run circles around with your jab and boxing skills but put that to the side tonight. We're gonna make you fight him in the one domain that he has an advantage in over you."

 

So, to your point about the ring rust, I don't buy the narrative apparently going around that compares Foreman's delay before the Lyle fight to Leonard's multi-year (!) retirement from an injury. (Which Leonard returned successfully from anyway after hard sparring.)

To your second point, I think you could ask the same kind of question about lots of good sluggers. Many of them have their own unique circumstances that make their fights special.

How many guys walked through murderous fire for round after round from a bigger, taller, future lineal champion with punching power like Wladimir Klitschko? And then won? Brewster did. Foreman didn't.

How many guys won a brawl against the future Ring champion -- himself a good puncher with an iron chin and a (slight) size advantage -- in their very last fight? Lennox did. Foreman didn't.

How many guys traded blows with a puncher like Tua without even going down for twelve rounds? Setting a literal punchstat record for the fight along the way? Ibeabuchi did. Foreman didn't.

I could go on.

None of that diminishes what Foreman accomplished with Lyle. But there are lots of unique, impressive achievements. It won't do to isolate one set of impressive facts and decide that this particular grouping is the be-all and end-all list of criteria that all other sluggers have to match to measure up.

Foreman's most impressive achievement in a slugfest was beating Lyle. He did a good job. Other heavyweights also achieved impressive things in slugfests, and some of those guys may well have outslugged Foreman.

We aren't talking about Foreman's chances in the "vast majority of hypothetical slugfests." We're talking about his chances against a narrow selection of other really tough, dangerous heavyweights. Most of them sluggers themselves.

 

As a slugfest on the whole, Foreman vs Lyle is somewhat overrated - in so far as a Foreman appearing very rusty, very sloppy and stamina addled, even for him.

However, not overrated in terms of a clearly understated Foreman’s ability to still prevail against a serious puncher.

Sure, big shots landed and multiple gut checks - the stuff that many fans love, but with Foreman taking more than his peak version otherwise would have.

Liston vs Williams 1 and Lyle vs Shavers easily rate higher as slugfests imo. Great punch outs but also underscored by match tuned skills and sharpness.

15 months inactivity, gym work notwithstanding, will accrue rust.

Leonard was out 5 years, save for the Kevin Howard comeback in 84 - a comeback fight in which Ray, while looking fit and trained enough, did look very rusty still - and he suffered the first KD of his career, no less.

The point is/has been that Ray’s prep for Hagler was extraordinary - not “as you go”.

Not sure that anyone has given their actually definition for “hard sparring” - quite a broad labelling.

Whether one believes it or not, Ray was reported to have engaged in fully fledged fights in the gym - conceptually, he went above and beyond the call of normal duty - and Ray admitted that he needed the singular and highly unique motivation of beating Hagler for the MW Crown to go ALL in his prep, as he did.

Now actually staying on point, what exactly did Foreman do to prepare himself for Lyle?

I’ve said before that there are two propositions here 1) that rust can be simply averted by “hard sparring” and 2) the curious assumption or completely ignored question as to whether Foreman did engage in said “hard sparring”.

From what I’ve read, Foreman didn’t participate in any particularly pointed sparring sessions prior to facing Lyle - and partners were hard to come by at any rate - go figure, with Foreman’s god given power.

If there was anything pointed , Foreman said he concentrated on trying to improve his cardio - and stamina by association - but he was, after all, still 6 lbs heavier than he was for Zaire.

Of course someone can try to refute what I know of Foreman’s prep for Lyle - but to do so, they’d have to produce evidence otherwise - and no evidence has been forthcoming - and the burden of proof is on them.

 

It's blatantly obvious Foreman's greatest slugging conquest was Frazier. A reigning lineal ATG that had never been defeated. To decimate a machine like that in under 2 rounds is ridiculous, quite frankly. It was like a man vs a boy. Joe showed enormous courage.