Could anyone out slug young Foreman?

You linked the thread in support of yourself.

You explain it instead of trying to use everyone else to crutch you.

I wasn’t rude to anyone, but you clearly hoped for same via your lame, diversionary tactic - clearly unable to stand on your own two feet.

You brought it up randomly because you had nothing of actual substance to offer otherwise. That’s how it “got there”.

I dropped my “I’m an eccentric weirdo act”?

My my, you do have some multiple issues going on in the background.

I’ve kept up and I’m well ahead of you. You should’ve waved the white flag well before now.

You’ve been extremely rude to a few posters, including myself - you shouldn’t be crying poor - it only serves to worsen your position - which was already in tatters anyway.

I’m not upset at all. You are, and very much so. You know this. Stop projecting.

So you’re “out” in respect of exchanging with me. Too easy.

 

I wouldn't bet on anyone.

 

You've been speaking on behalf of Pat M all day long.

Frazier had a more powerful jab than Holmes, heck, maybe even Liston and Foreman, who knew.

 

Honestly JT whatever magnum opus you write the hours, minutes or seconds (whatever) you put into saying you don’t need to shift your weight in boxing will be a waste of your life. You’re arguing for the sake of it, going against bedrock boxing fundamentals. To be clear no matter how you word it throwing a left hook off your lead foot and not shifting your weight to the rear foot is “improper” “not fundamental” or “WRONG” there is a right “optimal” way of doing things in boxing that’s a fact and there isn’t anything you can do to change that.

 

Oh Pug, stop with this Hyderabad analysis, will ya?

I'll fetch my coat....

 

In his book Box like the Pros (which I have a physical copy of), Joe Frazier states that the jab should always precede the left hook and set it up. If Frazier is doing all his work with his weight on the front foot, that includes his jab too. Jabbing like this whilst going forward can actually set up a left hook perfectly, because your right foot has to 'catch' your weight (for lack of a better term) after jabbing and acts almost like a spring, which would actually set up the begining left hook motion JM is debating. You see Jose Napoles do exactly the same thing on film - and no one would accuse him of being an improper technician. I think @Journeyman92 is forgetting that Frazier fought with constant momentum and therefore constant weight shifts. He's not literally standing still and throwing a left hook.

Also, in Frazier's book his advice about throwing the left hook is very similar to Louis'. I'm not sure why there's even an argument about this to be honest.

 

Yellow RD it’s cool you’ve got a physical copy of his book btw that was I think the first one I read (PDF) reading the workout routine made me wonder how he did dips with his weird left elbow… anyways I think you’re mistaken but it’s just my 0.2$ and I think I’ve pretty clearly laid it out, I haven’t forgotten anything (who can say lol) and I know what I’ve read, seen and have been told on just this subject. Not sure exactly what you’re describing but I was taught it was never a good idea to jab that way if I understand you, jabbing that way means you’d need to rock back to throw a right hand and that was Ike Quartey’s issue (and why his jab was so hard) it also brings you closer to the other guys right hand (an issue Frazier had with how he threw his hook too) again 0.2$ but factually if your weight isn’t going lead foot to rear foot it isn’t a proper hook.

 

What I'm saying is the Joe Frazier did get that activation with the rear foot a lot of the time. If your weight is predisposed to your front foot (as a Frazier's would be due to his style) then when you jab whilst moving forward, your front foot comes off the floor. When this happens, the right foot 'catches' your weight and sets you up well for a left hook. Again, Napoles used to do it. His bout with Lopez is a good example of this hooking off the jab (forward motion). This is actually beneficial to Frazier imo as he had a bobbing and weaving style. There is nothing wrong with Frazier's left hook imo - this would actually be one of the very few technical details I would disagree with Pat on (if that is what Pat meant, I can't be bothered to go through a while other thread, especially since he himself is not actually posting here. This is not a slight to him).

Also, this is what Frazier himself has to say about the left hook, from the same book, quote copied from Mcgrains thread (for context, this part in the book is precede by Frazier already discussing stances and weight distribution, in which Joe always recommends a 50/50 stance, in case you wanna be finicky):

 

Being front foot heavy and bending over at the waist etc isn’t really a style to emulate it isn’t “proper” and creates the issues I’ve discussed… When you hook off the jab usually… you shoot your jab, step let the weight settle ( just a second) and make sure you’re bringing the rear foot with you so you can transfer the weight, RD you’re transferring the weight backwards to your rear foot it’s a good hook… you can throw a bad hook and still hook off the jab - if Frazier throws his hook (to summarise) “leaning forward and to the left then anchoring the foot and driving from it” you’re not transferring the weight, the pivotal point becomes …your lead leg… you’re not able to whip it “through” it’s an at the target shot because the “through” comes from your weight being pulled back to the rear leg. you know I respect your opinion, I am sticking to my guns on this Frazier threw it wrong he is in not comparable to Napoles in this regard I encourage you to instead argue why “Big” Toney would be the best HW in the 60s (if Ali was absent) in my coming thread instead good day to you my friend.

 

I don't think you two are as far apart in your opinion as you think. It's hard to describe a punch in writing so it's easy to confuse what you mean. If you were in the same room and both of you demonstrated how to throw the hook, it would probably be similar if not the same. I have said that IMO if a fighter throws a hook and leaves his weight on the front foot it is a bent arm jab. I don't think Joe Frazier did that. I think he got a good weight transfer behind his hook. I can understand why people might think that he didn't because of the well known pictures from the first Ali fight where JF is reaching with the long hook and it looks front foot based, but there are lots of examples of JF throwing shorter hooks inside and he is transferring his weight.

 

I’m going to mostly stay with my stance on this Pat. I don’t agree totally but I will always respect your opinion regardless as we’ve talked plenty.
I will shift my belief that at least he let his hook get wide off his front foot when he wasn’t inside and it’s why his right hand suffered.

 

On a serious note, how do we define “out slug” here? Does it mean taking George’s leather and dishing it right back, or does it mean staying in the pocket and being able to counter him effectively? For the latter I’d pick Louis, maybe even Sullivan and Jeffries but that’s mostly speculation based on how their styles sounded.

 

I took it as standing ground or moving forward and trying for the knockout, while taking the usual risks this entails, even though Foreman is doing the same.

If the thread requires that the other guy drop his hands and let Foreman hit him like it's a professional slapping match, obviously that would be a different story. (And sport.)

 

I do wonder if we can argue that Ali 'outslugged' him...he took all George hit him with and returned fire throughout.

 

Wasn't Ali winning on points by the round he stopped George?