Could anyone out slug young Foreman?

Would he learn to properly box first?

 

“You’re blowing it son!” I wonder how many “secret fights” (very distinctly) different to hard sparring / gym wars Ali and Holmes had under Angelo? On one occasion Roy “Tiger” Williams and Ali sparred two days back to back I think it was 15 rounds? Ali planned on KOIng him but settled for a secret UD… think of how much elevated there records would be if we knew the esoteric truth? Ali would at the least belong to the old school as a guy who fought a contender type multiple times in a week.

 

Yes but it’s a double edged sword think of all the bad days at the office he had famously…In a “secret fight” he’d have probably lost to guys like “Blue” Alvin Lewis and his record may take on a more “ugly” old school shape.

 

That’s your offering of a cash strapped Ali doing hard sparring, therefore not losing a step during his exile? In late ‘69 no less. He was banned from the sport in ‘67 you know.

Three rounds with Ellis and how many with Bugner? When Ali actually fought Ellis it wasn’t even a hard spar.

Bugner also sparred some rounds with Liston around that time - getting a modicum of experience and some publicity from being in the ring with some big names. Excuse me if I’m underwhelmed by your low hanging fruit evidence.

Otherwise, I’ve already detailed the differences in Leonard’s bouts in the gym under actual, strict match conditions. I don’t think anyone else would have difficulties understanding it except you.

Suffice to say, you’re scrambling all over the place, still unable to focus.

You’re running with two arguments -1) that hard sparring can avert rust and 2) that both Ali and Foreman did hard sparring so therefore they weren’t rusty.

I asked you FIRST to detail Foreman’s training during his hiatus from Zaire to the Lyle fight.

You provided nothing and, surprise, surprise, you said you weren’t talking about Foreman anymore (Pssst,….it’s a Foreman thread, which you have conveniently chosen to forget).

Seriously, you really need to read yourself - it’s quite laughable.

You’re done? You were already done when I dismantled your arguments previously.

I guess it sounds better if it seems you making the call than admit it was forced upon you.

 

What costume are you wearing? Sideline cheer leader? “Journeyman, Journeyman, he’s our man…….”

 

Surely a clown costume.

 

So what if Leonard did have ‘fights’ in the gym? Is that cheating, lol?

But I want some facts. You say he had four of them. Who were the opponents? How many rounds were these ‘fights’? What were the results? Who were the referees and judges? Where did those take place?

I’ve heard all kind of legends — that they were over a span of years, that they were all after the Hagler fight was signed, etc. … but never details. Somebody would have talked by now.

When you’re talking about Leonard getting knocked out on his feet in preparation for Hagler, that was Quincy Taylor and it was sparring in every account. Not a “secret fight.” Quincy, btw, was 3-0, so hardly a ‘simulated title fight’ lol.

 

I’m sorry the facts wind you up BUT Ali sparred in exile and it’s a FACT those were easy examples to find (there are others but kick rocks) it’s fine we aren’t on that topic anymore no need to divert again… BUT to make it clear Ali sparred in exile and it’s a fact to what extent? I’m not sure, wouldn’t presume but he charged 10k for Bugner lol the camp he had for Bonavena and approaching the news of his comeback would’ve got him as good as he could be at his age for his first fight back. His skills were undiminished by exile, he didn’t forget how to box he’d been doing it since he was 12 and had been sparring along the coast… he was just older but only 28 LOL I do think his legs had stared to go however. All he needed was to get his timing, his weight right and used to being hit hard that’s all. That’s my final say.

Now more importantly… Puggie the question ain’t going away - you’ve supposedly answered it? Should be easy to just copy and paste it or summarise no?

“What makes something a “secret fight” and not a hard spar Pug? What is so different to it and the kind of hard sparring modern pros / guys knocking the rust off do instead of fighting Johnny Paycheck? You don’t think guys foul in the gym? You don’t think when you’re sparring intensely it isn’t trying to “win” the round? You don’t think there is a “ref” around to control the action? Break it down and try to be sort of specific to Leonard not your “interpretation” what did he do different?”

 

He had four 10 round simulated fights against top 20 fighters in prep for Hagler. They had the advantage of headgear and smaller gloves. Leonard won them all. No outsiders were present and no-one knew what was going on in the closed off gym.

Extra details aren't public knowledge.

 

Four 10 round hard sparring sessions one of which against a 3-0 Quincy Taylor (is that not public knowledge?) who by Leonard’s mouth almost KO’d him 5 days before the fight against Hagler… I haven’t found any source for Leonard saying these were “secret fights” not that it makes a difference but have you got a quote etc a source?

 

Quicy Taylor was not one of the simulated fights. He was also 3-0 not 4-0 just to keep things factual.

This is straight from Leonard's matchmaker. They were not "sparring sessions" Leonard knocked two of them out.

Mike Trainer decided that after not fighting since 1984, Ray needed to have a couple fights before Hagler. So we did simulated fights. We brought in guys from around the country that were in the top 20, and Ray had four fights. He was 4-0 with two knockouts. The other guys had headgear on with small gloves, and Ray had no headgear with bigger gloves because he wanted to get used to getting hit. They were 10-round fights, and the guys got paid good money. No outsiders came in, the gym was closed down completely, nobody knew what was going on.

 

The Hagler die hards really, REALLY insist that the fact Leonard did some hard sparring after a long lay off is some kind of “cheating” or “stacked deck” Leonard also got off all the drugs and trained all year round prior to cleanse his body… Is that cheating too? Was the right way getting off the couch like Holmes did with Tyson?

 

So break it down for the dope… what makes a “simulated fight / secret fights” different to a “hard sparring / gym war” exactly? Never heard Leonard talk about this calling them “fights” or anyone besides this one guy? (btw thanks for the quote) but where did you get it?

 

It's all there in print. I don't care about semantics. The fact is Mike Trainer thought Leonard needed some fights so he arranged simulated fights. If he didn't think Ray needed something over and above regular sparring he wouldn't have organized the events.

It's really this simple.

 

Was one of the people he fought Liberty Valance?

“When the fact becomes legend, print the legend.”

Four fights. No known opponents, referees or judges or results or locations.

I’ll trade you my Greb video collection for this knowledge.

BTW, if one of the ‘fighters’ is wearing a headgear and has smaller gloves than the other, it’s not a simulated fight. That’s sparring. A thing is what it is: it is not something else. What fight have you ever heard of under these conditions? Heck, ‘newspaper decision’ fights that end with no result if there’s not a KO are more ‘fights’ than what you’re describing.

Ray sparred. Hagler lost. Boo hoo.