Could Evander Out Rocky Rocky?

No. Marciano would knock him out mid-to late. Holyfield got hit way, way too much, and right on the buttom. Great chin and all, but Rock would crush it

 

I agree Dempsey. People watch too much film of marciano in 1954 and 1955 and think he couldnt hit that hard, but they forget by that time he was in his early 30s and his style had changed from a slugger to a swarmer. Watch the early 1950s marciano, he hit like a truck his filmed knockouts were devastating over layne, mathews, walcott, louis

 

I have the strategy and the foresight of how Holyfield could win. The only problem is that Ezzard, Walcott, Moore, LaStarza, Louis and others all had the preconceived strategies and foresight of how they'd beat the "crude and limited" Marciano. It is only when one analyses the subtle intracacies of Rocky in depth, and if need be, slow motion, that you can begin to appreciate his craft. However, I do think that there are some disingenuous fans who would suddenly have us believe that the Rock was some technical genius in there ... I disagree, but the man was a special fighter - no ifs, buts and maybes.

For Holyfield to win, he has to produce a hybrid of his cruiserweight and his HW self up to Bowe (before he got left hook trigger happy) and inclusive of the strategy that he carried out with Tyson. Unlike Tyson, Marciano didn't go back to the beginning blocks and restart if you broke his momentum. If Evander ties him up on the inside, Marciano won't be passive and wait for the ref to break em up ... he'll butt, elbow follow through with his hooks, jostle and do everything that he can to wear the man down. Fortunately for Evander, he's just as adept at naughty inside work. He, too will butt on the inside if he gets the chance ... but his will be more concentrated and intentional than the accidental coming of heads that I envisage as Rocky tries to find room to work. Evander will target an eye and keep on going.

Rocky negates some of Holyfield's superior handspeed with his shorter reach on the inside. Here, Rocky won't be able to match Evan for pure handspeed, but he will be able to time him and with Marciano's ability to lean, duck and roll under punches and come back swinging haymaker counterpunches, Mr. Fields will have to be at his best of focus at all times. This is where I feel that the warrior in Evan, much like the warrior in Hearns, gets the best of him. Once Evan feels the power on the inside a bit too much for his liking, instead of creating distance and doubling and tripling up on what was a good jab, like he was doing against Bowe in their first encounter, he'll come off his toes, wade in, looking to land left hook bomb after bomb. This will play into Rocky's hands cos the Rock was a better and more powerful two handed puncher, IMO. Holyfield opens himself up to the body when in this warrior mode and if he was vulnerable in durability, it was to the body, IMO.

If Marciano gets good looks on the inside, enough to convince Evan to go toe to toe, Rocky needs to concentrate on evading that left hook and ripping Evan to the body. Slow him down and count on his poor stamina down the stretch in a high tempo, damaging fight. Ironically, enough, I think that Marciano could be outmuscled and outmanned by a determined Holyfield, yet, I think that Marciano would prove too determined, too rough, too active for Holyfield to contain like he did to Tyson. If Holyfield were to stay boxing and then manage to negate Rocky's inside offence, then I'd be confident in a Holyfield split decision win ... knowing Holyfield's propensity for war and Marciano's intangiables weighed up against Holyfield's own, I think that Marciano would win by two rounds or so in a 15. I don't see a KO, possibly a TKO if Holyfield does a real job on Marciano's face with the headbutting and targetting of the wound/s. I think that both men could face having points deducted.

I'm going with Marciano to outwork Evan down the stretch and be more of the ring general by making Evan fight to his disadvantage.

 

Thats impressive Meta5. nothing for critics or supporters to doubt in your anaylsis there.

 

Foreman never KO'd a guy as clean as Tyson, Dempsey or Louis and yet, I still believe that he hit harder than them all.

There is much more to a concussive punch than mere power ... point of impact, trajectory of the punch, speed of the punch upon impact, the surprise factor of the punch, the mental resistance at the time of impact of the man that received the punch, thickness of neck muscles to absorp the shock of the punch ... there is so much more than just power.

Without hearing all the mystical tales of Rocky punching through walls to say hello to the neighbours, I'm not convinced that he hit any harder than Lewis, Foreman, Shavers, Tua, Tyson etc. one can even mention Bruno, Baer and others. I contend that there are several fighters that hit harder than Marciano at HW.

 

Well if your going to go by that logic, then we can say fighters like Jeff Merrit is the hardest "hitter" in history. I mean at some point you have to draw a line and say how effective was their power in the ring against ranked opponents Not many "Heavyweights" hit harder than the early 1950s slugger version of the rock...The man who left durable ranked fighters like layne, walcott, mathews, louis out cold. Marciano wasn't your ordinary 185lb man, he was a genetic freak of a speciman with the strength of a hulk, back muscles of a olympic wrestler. While I agree heavyweights have hit harder, I wouldn'y necessarily say "several".

 

Agreed.

 

Nicely put. I was anticipating that you'd choose Evander but you went with Rocco; alas and as usual, we agree.

I believe that Evander has a serious chance here and a primary reason is because of his underestimated punching power. Even as late as the mid-90s pundits were still selling that view that Evander doesn't have a real punch. I remember early on in his HW tenure he was trying hard as hell to bang guys out there, even trying to get by the ref to put his man down after a stoppage (Dokes). He was an accumulative puncher but as time went on, he developed a damn good shot. You don't drop Mercer and come within a hair's breadth of stopping Bowe if you don't pack a wallop. He stopped Tyson, effectively twice. Marciano was a puncher, but he was stopping and dropping guys who weren't juggernauts like Mercer and Tyson, nor giants like Bowe.

I believe that Marciano could do damage -to anyone. He punched like Dempsey -using his whole body with torque and maximum leverage. He'd hurl himself into shots and those sides of beef that were his thighs were good complements to those short arms and snapping long torso. The man was literally built to punch. Someone compared his punching to a man tossing cement slabs. He was also strong as a bull and that lower center of gravity would be advantageous inside. I happen to think that his crouch would protect him from butts. And let's remember that Tyson was usually butting himself by running straight in while Holyfield did what you are supposed to do -come in as a small, tight package to meet him.

Marciano fought like a pendulum scraping the canvas. Like a human scythe -weaving under and coming up with blockbusters. It's hard to butt him. Because he was coming up under you and butting your chin.

I have no doubt about Marciano's power and physical strength. None. Holyfield was not as strong when he fought Dokes for instance as he was when he fought Tyson. I hope and pray it wasn't roids that made the difference, but he was a relatively light HW, by any standard. That helps Marciano.

What concerns me is Holyfield's offensive capability. He was a smart puncher, a hard puncher, punched in combinations that were fast, and had exceptional timing. He could ruin Marciano's face and make it look like a Picasso if, if, if, he finds the range and times him. However, Moore himself couldn't do this... and if he couldn't, I doubt Holyfield would even with the combination of Benson and Steward. Goldman was smarter than both of them anyway. And Marciano was a brilliant student -a sponge according to Goldman, who said that "he never made the same mistake twice."

Also, the concern does not overcome my suspicions that I share with you -namely, that Holyfield will be invited to jam and will oblige as he almost always did (commendations here to Steward who fixed that for his best career win -against Bowe). Jamming long term with Marciano is just not what you want to do.

Holyfield's conditioning was highly touted but I have to say it was overrated. He trained hard, but he had a medical issue -whether it was a hole in his left ventricle or steroids, I don't know. I saw it early on -Alex Stewart I. He would suddenly get weak and inactive at some point... and Rocky would train 5 months for fun and at least once trained 9 months. In the ring he just doesn't stop.

A 15 round testosterone battle or an endurance contest? Rocky Marciano is too much M-A-N for even (Evan?) the Holy Warrior.

 

Evander had difficulties against a simularly built Quawi. & was forced into a pitched battle. Had Marciano been landing some of the blows Quawi did, Holyfield would eventually wilt under the pressure. IMO Marciano would stop Evander in about eight or nine rounds.

 

Awhile back there was a Marciano-Holyfield thread. I picked Holyfield by decision then but now I'm going to change my mind. Somewhere down the line, even if Holyfield was way ahead on the cards, that warrior (That's his nickname right?) mentality is going to surface when Rocky clips him with some good shots. Late in the fight that will be opportunity the ever presistent Marciano takes advantage of. When Evander inevitably tries to "Out Rocky Rocky" that is when he gets kayoed IMO.

Marciano by late kayo in a bloody and brutal war.

 

Tua's kayo was Ruiz was frightening when it happened. I thought at the time that Ruiz might have been very seriously hurt. Also, Darroll Wilson was really starched by that awesome lefthook of the Tuaman. Tua was really something in the late 90's!

 

Evander's jab and combination punching would make the difference IMO. I don't think Rocky could take Holy out with one shot as Evander has a great chin and is used to being hit by much bigger and stronger opponents than Rocky ever faced. If Holy plays it smart and boxes Rocky from the outside then I think he takes it by UD or late round stoppage due to cuts. If he gets stupid then Rocky has a good chance but I think Evander could do well in a brawl also. Tyson hit him some brutal swipes in thier first fight and Evander didn't go anywhere and actually outbrawled Mike so I don't think he would be pushed around and beaten up by Rocky either. In his attempt to get in Holy's chest Rocky would be taking alot of punishment and Evander is leagues above Rex Layne and Harry Matthews as far as dishing it out goes.

 

I'm staying on the fence for this hypothetical...Strong analysis has been put forth from Stonehands and Meta5, and there just is not much more to add! A fight at cruiserweight would be one of the greatest fights that could ever take place. Marciano would not be at any strength disadvantage, and he would wear Holyfield down at the end of a fifteen rounder. If Holy thought Qawi was tough, Marciano would be much worse! I'll take Marciano by dec!...At heavy? I'll take Holyfield...but I want the Holyfield from his second title reign or so...Why? Holyfield learned to fight a smarter fight,paced himself, and sat down on his punches better. That Holy could I feel push Marciano back, fire off one-two's and control the pace better against Rocky...(similar to the Tyson fight)
Marciano would be more active than Tyson on the inside, that is a certainty...and it would be Holyfield who is the one turning down the heat in the fight. But IMO the strength disparity is the key at heavyweight. Holyfield would do the better scoring, in a good, but mauling type of a fight. Holyfield by dec.
Damn, is this like being politically correct?

 

Why do you have to mention "how effective their power in the ring against ranked opponents" was?

What about those that were ducked, denied chances to fight many ranked contenders ... are they no longer big punchers by default? What about the fighters of the 1940s and 1950s that you, your very self, try so hard to highlight ... the ones given no chance, are some of them no longer big punchers cos they didn't face enough contenders?

Having an effective punch doesn't necessitate that one is more powerful than the type of fighter that has to club submission out of fighters as opposed to one punch clean KO's. I still insist that Foreman hits harder than Lewis, Liston and Tyson ... all of whom are top tier punchers.

I rate Rocky for power, but contend that there are several that hit harder and am willing to name them. Who, in your opnion, if any, hit harder than Marciano?
Note that it's merely a question of power, not how many contenders were faced, coma inducing, bone breaking or any other such factors, just pure visible/reported power.