Could Evander Out Rocky Rocky?

do you even lika any fighters past 1960?

 

Those steaks Rocky ate were laced with steroids. Dude was ahead of his time in so many ways.

 

Of course he could, he held every concieveable advantage, except stamina. I consider his prime the first Bowe fight and a little prior while he was in his first reign and its very hard to see him not be able to outslug a fighter slower, smaller, less skilled, and so easy to hit. Bowe slugged it out with far bigger stronger fighters and harder punchers....Lennox Lewis, Riddick Bowe, Holyfield, Mike Tyson.

 

Hi Stonehands89,

GREAT POST!!! I am a Marciano fan, but I wonder if Holyfield would
be able to outspeed Rocky with flurries of hard punches.

Evander could set down on his punches and crack hard!!!

If Rocky could survive a midrounds assault from Holyfield, then
Rocky wins in a vicious fight!!!


Grebfan9
www.firstroundboxing.com

 

Joe Louis, Mike Tyson, Sonny Liston, George Foreman, Earnie Shavers, and David Tua possibly. thats about it. fighters like lennox lewis razor ruddock , george godfrey and cleveland williams are up there.

 

good point

 

As I said, I feel Foreman is over rated as a puncer(He still hits hard)
Most often than not, the guy keep getting up, Ken Norton, Joe Fraizer comes to mind, and Foreman would keep clubbing them down.
Louis or Marciano when they connect with a real good punch, the guy was out for a LONNNNG time.

 

This would be a dogfight from start to finish. Marciano had the clear edge in power but you can't count out Evander. I see Marcianos limitless stamina being the difference and he wins the late rounds.
Marciano wins by a close decision in a war.

 

Agreed ... whilst Holyfield isn't a demonic puncher, he definitely packed a solid whack. I remember one hook, especially, that bounced off of Bowe's head, and me looking at the screen like when you see a squirrel or frog that's been run over by a car. I would call Holyfield a 7/10 puncher for power ... Marciano wouldn't want him continuously teeing off on him at will for 15 rounds.

Any man that lets someone with the workrate and power of Marciano tee off on them is a suicidal man with a deathwish that's having an affair with the Devil Incarnate's wife, whilst owing the Devil money and a soul that he lost in a bet - basically, he's fooked.

Aha, the lower centre of gravity is intriguing. I've been thinking about it for the longest ... Marciano's shorter, so should be able to not only butt Evander to the face, but especially to the chin with the top of his head. Evan does come in small, like you say and looking at the Tyson fight, the clashing was predominantly caused by Tyson's rushing in and Evan's minimalisation of his own vulnerable spots by coming in small, but, Evan does premeditate contact. You only have to look at the Rahman fight to see this. Hasim looked like his brain was giving birth and I'm thinking ... "if Holyfield can butt Tyson, he can butt Marciano". There's no real difference in their statures, similar height, but then again, Marciano's crouch is something that Tyson just didn't employ. Perhaps, the butting will factor, but perhaps Marciano will be the one with the upper hand?

I've just waxed unlyrical about this . Thing is, with Mr. Fields, I wouldn't put anything past him ... his mentality won't let him be butted without retribution ... take away the butts from him, I'm sure he'll find a way, whether it's punching on the break, rabbit punches or hitting low, with elbows, something ... it's rare that someone with a Marciano, Duran, Holyfield, Hagler (warrior) disposition, allows a fighter to use dirty tactics and get away with it, without any consequences.

That's why I referred to a hybrid between cruiser and Tyson-Holyfield. The speed of his cruiser self, with the strength, strategical mind, ability to execute and will of his HW self. Probably was the roids, but that's neither here nor there. Although that Holyfield was relatively light for a HW, he still was heavier than Marciano, who admittedly trained to keep his weight low. Therefore, whilst a Marciano was freakishly strong for his weight, Holyfield was also strong for his weight, with an even stronger willpower. I don't overestimate Rocco's strength, I wonder if I underestimate Evander's and then worry that I may be overstating how important the strength factor will be. Whilst I envisage clinching, these aren't your typical HW clinchers ... they worked in the clinch, Marciano with elbows, short punches and Holyfield, with the head and trying to manoeuvre his man about the ring.

Holyfield's offensive capability is why I referred to his cruiser self ... he had good handspeed and threw well in combination. With the tripling of his jab and a good right following his left, his combination punching was accurate, sharp and well timed. Moore couldn't do it, but that doesn't mean to say that Holyfield couldn't. Walcott found Marciano in their first, and yes, I know that Walcott and Holyfield don't share the same footwork and body feints that allowed Walcott to land like he did, but I am of the belief that Holyfield could tag him all the same. He has to be prepared to use his footwork, reach, combination punching and tying up to disrupt momentum and take his licks to pull this off. I think that with Benson and Steward he possibly could find the range and timing. Don't forget that when he fought Tyson, he executed excellently. He'd stop Tyson's momentum with the clinch, push him backwards, so that he was off balance and throw headshots before Tyson could regain his composure. This was an excellent strategy to use against Tyson and Evan did it very successfully. Is it too much to envisage how they might devise a successful strategy for Holyfield, and his excellent execution of it?

Unfortunately for Goldman, never making the same mistake twice means that you made it once ... when it comes to the ATGs, all it may take is the one mistake ... but ...

Unfortunately, with Holyfield, much like Hearns, he could be 'persuaded' to fight toe to toe, when hurt or feeling the need to stamp his authority with a dissenting opponent. With Marciano, this is not an option ... Foreman could, Liston could, Holyfield doesn't want to dream of doing this long term.

Holyfield's conditioning was touted cos he had a great physique, but functionally, his was overrated. No man that gases after 7 rounds, 8 rounds, on a seemingly consistent basis is in as good a shape as their outward appearance would have us believe. It's much like Bruno ... great physique, shoddy stamina, IMO. Eventually, too much muscle is too much muscle ... much rather have loose, long, endurance musculature like that of an Ali, Holmes or Louis.

In a classic phonebooth fight, last man standing fight, brute strength and show of willpwer fight, I share your sentiments ... Rocco is just too much for Evander, although Evan WILL push him ... perhaps in a way that he'd never been pushed before.

 

Holyfield was a textbook puncher -even when ferociously assaulted. Throwing perfect left hooks in the 15th round is special. And he was fast -early on with the big boys he was speedy -see the Tillis and Seamus MacDonough (sp?) fights. Marciano would be outspeeded, but when wasn't he. I see him adjusting to this -with that scythe style and small package.. but he also compensated against boxers because Goldman was a genious -he punched not only often, but from stupid angles. Marciano would throw loopers from his butt and clubs from the floor. These shots catch textbook fighters like Charles and Moore who are expecting something ...normal!

Good stuff

I'm probably alone on the forum with this, but I think that Holyfield wasn't intentionally butting Tyson at all in either fight. It is a fact that as guys get older, the telltale signs are a looping right cross and they come in their head. That indicates to me that their bodies aren't keeping up with their brain -which makes sense literallly and figuratively. I will grant you that as he got older he seemed to come in with his head naturally -and suspiciously.

In sum, I see prime Holyfield as retaliatory, but not dirty. Perhaps we agree here more than disagree.

No hybrids allowed! Pick the Holyfield fight were he was most able to contend with Marciano. I would say Bowe II. Before that he was too light and after that he wasn't busy enough. Marciano was a freak. I suspect that his strength was deceptive considering his 184 pounds. He struck me as just as strong in real terms as guys 50 pounds heavier. He was built for punching and I would argue that he was built for strength. I can't imagine how much the man could squat or bench if he ever cared to train devoutly for such things. In a wrestling match, my money's on the Rock against Holy.

Tyson was dangerous for about 3 rounds. Psychologically, he was infantile to Rocky's behemoth. Rocky had known sleeper power in round 13. Tyson faded -fast. I would propose that Rocky far exceeds Evander in cardiovascular endurance. They're even with "will", but Rocky will be dangerous throughout the fight. Evander's lulls will be costly -I see rounds 12 through 15 as Evander making heroic stand though hurt and though exhausted, but Marciano looking like it's round 1. I love this picture not for any other reason than that MARCIANO'S MOUTH IS CLOSED and it's *&^!? round 13!

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Amen.

Amen, and your statements above about Foreman and Liston being among the few that could stand this kind of match against Marciano is are good. Edge Liston. Foreman fades. Can't be fading so fast against the unfatiguable!

 

The unorthodox shots with a looping trajectory outside one's direct line of sight are usually the ones that "do 'em in". For this reason, Holyfield needs to be very aware in there ... he showed better discipline in Bowe II and ability to negate offence in the Tyson showdowns. This stands him well for Marciano, however, you cannot just prepare for a Marciano ... with a style so unique in parts, certain things you just have to adapt to when they're presented. I actually happen to think that Marciano and Dempsey are two ATGs that have a higher chance of getting a KO against Holyfield. It's because of the angles that the punches would be delivered from and the power behind the punches. However, at his best, I can see the roid warrior in Evan surviving the onslaught and seeing the final bell.

Yeah, I once owed the Devil a soul ... I gave it to him on a piece of paper ... signed it 'Donald King', but I don't like to talk about it too much ... painful experience :verysad

I partially agree with you. The very first clash was definitely a coming together caused by Tyson coming in straight on and Holyfield coming in small. If I recall correctly, a commentator actually mentioned this as a reason for the clash. However, regardless of how many of them he has bought to still the cries of his Salvation Army of offspring, Holyfield is no dummy. I genuinely believe that once Holyfield discovered how advantageous an 'accidental' clash of the heads was for him, he started to facilitate its occuring with regular frequency.

Yeah, we definitely agree. Prime Holyfield was tit for tat ... you try to shaft me, I'll do it worse. As he got older, though, I think that he went from retaliatory to pre-emptive, finally arriving at intentional to even and then tip the playing field in his favour as he felt that he was starting to slip.

Yeah, before Bowe II ... too light to grapple with the Rock. After it, not busy enough and I'd contend that his late round stamina wasn't overly more impressive than Foreman's at times; and Foreman expended much more energy with the amount of body weight that he put into his crushing Thor hammer blows. The one doubt, and it is a big one, that I have with using the Bowe II version is that before Fan Man, I felt that Holyfield was beginning to tire and Bowe was starting to wake up. Upon resumption of the bout, Evan had his second wind and Bowe's mind was understandably not 100% focused. I dare say that if not for the intervention, Bowe may have gone on to build momentum and eventually wear Holyfield down to submission, but that's mere speculation.

In this hypothetical match up, there is no Fan Man. There is no respite from Rocco and Holyfield will be forced to fight at a higher intensity. On the counter side, Rocco probably wasn't as strong as Bowe, definitely didn't have his size, so Holyfield wouldn't be forced to carry that extra weight as he did whenever Bowe decided to muscle him. I'm not sure if Holyfield at this stage of his career would be able to allow Marciano to find his wings and not get drowned by the workrate. I think that Holyfield would have to keep it at distance and then stop Marciano from working at close range. Problem is that this would take an enourmous amount of mental energy and concentration and like I've said before and will reiterate, I'm concerned that Holyfield could be dragged into an out and out brawl.

Great picutre ... has always looked to me like his jaw is closed because it'd hurt him to open it. Joe's isn't the only face swollen in the picture.

Evan had to be on high alert for 3 rounds, but Tyson is Tyson ... as he proved with Botha, all he needs is one punch. However, Botha doesn't have Holyfield's chin, so perhaps, Holyfield didn't have all THAT much to worry about, once he started to control the fight. Problem is, knowing that Tyson could strike at any time, Holyfield was in a dangerous place. With Tyson fading, there is a high possibility that your mind may switch off and you just go through the motions, making you vulnerable to a sudden explosion of Tyson. Psychologically, the constant thought or foresight of being hit and hurt can be worse than actually being hit, knowing that you've been hit and surving the hit. In this sort of match up, I don't see Holyfield getting beaten by falling asleep inside the ring ... similarly, as long as he understands what faces him, I don't see him falling asleep facing Marciano ... however, this is partially wishful thinking and my gut feeling tells me that Marciano tags him, Holyfield chases him to even the score and has broken his gameplan that was proving successful and falls right into Marciano's trap.

I speak from personal experience, compadre. I used to be slim, fast, loose muscled. Now, a lil' more bulked up, still quick, not quite as, much stronger ... the more muscle packed on, the more I notice just how much harder it is to repeat the same cardiovascular feats that you used to take for granted. Relatively, a cruiserweight Holyfield that was deemed too small to compete that bulks up to a similar enough weight to the legendary Liston, a relatively short HW, whose tale of tape reads like a superheavyweights ... incredible, but, of course that man lose speed and stamina. This describes Holyfield post Bowe

I think Liston could brawl with Rocco for 15, although I think he'd stop him ... with Big George, he couldn't brawl with him for 15, although, he has the chin and heart to trade for several. George would eventually tire, but I put it to you that the ref. would probably stop the bout and award George the victory via TKO before it came to George punching himself out and being TKO'd himself. I just happen to think that George is all wrong for any come forward puncher that's smaller, weaker, not as strong of the chin and testicular fortitude and especially those that dip their head. As much as people denigrate Big George on this forum, he was actually quite an accurate finisher. Look at the punches that finished off Norton and Frazier ... on the button ... I can very well see Marciano ducking a Foreman jab, and finding out that as he's thrown a counter, George is sending a gigantic uppercut at Marciano's chin ... and he will land something ... can Marciano outlast him and call his stamina into question?

 

Yes. There have been quite a few threads where the "size/power fetish" comes out fullly and while it cannot be denied that large SHWs are generally stronger and able to generate greater force than smaller guys, I see Jack and Rocco as uniquely able to put down anyone. Anyone. They were just large enough to be objectively considered big men, but still had physiques that were more efficiently able to generate force -Rocky had the structure and the leverage, Jack had the speed and the leverage. Rocky was supremely conditioned, Jack had torque power that was nothing short of vicious. Throw in those weirdo shots (especially overhands) and you got something truly special.

Absolutely. Those Biblical quotes on his shorts looked out of place as the sinner got older and sinned with more gusto.

Marciano was a creature designed to trump boxers. He and Goldman had answers for jabs, superior workrate, and yes, even speed. His natural chin and fire-tested will took care of the problem of power and I would speculate superior size. However.... when you have someone who has superior size, strength, and serious power and conditioning (like Liston), Rocky is going to have serious problems because those assets that made the difference no longer would. Rocky relied on an imposition of will to see him through. Liston was too strong and hit to hard, and had underrated skill and conditioning in say, 1959.

And you may be absolutely correct. But the fact that he could still, after all those grueling rounds and all that punishment to his face, end it with one shot tells me he simply wasn't that tired.

Incidentally, Goldman said that Rocky wasn't at his best that night. He felt that Rocky was nervy about him, a boy from Brockton, fighting for the HW championship of the world. Goldman said that he was scheduled to be at his optimum level as a boxer about 2 fights after the Moore fight! Perhaps he just didn't want him to retire just yet...

Perhaps you're right, but I would assert that Holyfield knew that Tyson's gamma power faded. I see Tyson as an emotional fighter -later in his career this came more to the surface as he needed the presence of CLOWNS AND MINSTRELS to tell him how persecuted he is and how badass he is. Remember that "Loved by few, hated by most, feared by all" garbage his posse was touting? It was juvenile. All I saw was his insecurity.

Tyson would, and perhaps had to think menacing thoughts in the dressing room and rev himself up on the long walk. When he got in the ring he was like a coiled spring, pacing around the ring until he could explode at the bell. But how long does any emotion last? Dempsey writes in his book ("Explosive Punching" 1950) that anger is the uninvited guest in the boxing ring -it's the enemy if you fight based on it. Anyway, Tyson fought with intensity and that ghetto rage, but it was dissipated mid-fight. After that he relied on skill. I think that the greater ones used that internal rage/emotion as a reserve to call upon late or when things got bad -like after Ezzard split your nose in half.

Who in the grip of their emotions doesn't get tired faster?

Absolutely. When a teenager, I was boxing and streetfighting and noticed during the latter that when I fought bigger guys they always seemed to lift me up and throw me. I was lean and fast. So I hit the weights and developed my upper body. Did better in the street but got my head kicked in in the ring because that speed edge was gone. I wasn't loose anymore.

I'd favor Liston as well. Foreman is a tough call. I have this picture in my head of Foreman clubbing the back of Rocky's head during one of those floor-scraping weaves. Like Liston, Foreman is stronger than Rocky, but Foreman did not have the stamina or the skill... he could however answer Rocky's loops with bigger loops. Your question at the end is the one that must be answered to decide this match.

Here's another one: How is Rocky going to cope if he is the one being forced backwards??

 

Stop articulating my very thoughts!

In every epoch, man has always punished the qualities that he abhors in others, indeed, the very qualities that he fails to see in himself. Basically, it's very easy to get religious, quote the Bible, tell others of their wrong doing and self-proclaim one's own righteousness ... it's much harder to actually practice what one preaches than it is for one to preach it - just ask Evan Fields :hey.

Yes, I could see that Liston systematically breaking him down ... Rocky wouldn't go easy, no fighter of his nature does, but Liston would just be too much, IMO.

Yeah, that's testament to his superior conditioning. Additionally, Rocky was the type of man with the resolve to maintain/control his emotional output. Some fighters in pain really make a mountain out of a molehill and others just tough it out. Rocco most definitely was a tough-it-outer ... I do honestly think he woulda been reasonably hurt in the pic, he does show significant facial swelling, but ... looking at his demeanour, you cannot tell.

Winning is like a drug ... an adrenaline rush that a lot of people can become addicted to. Apart from stupid investments and frivelous spending, this, in my mind, is one of the main reasons that boxers go on for too long. It's like a fiend craving for a pipe. Managers, trainers, entourage often live through their fighters ... sometimes, for them, a fighter retiring is them being cut off the gravy train ... I'm sure Goldman woulda wanted Marciano to carry on because it means more money, more glory for Goldman ... but that's just me being cynical ... meh.

Despite how strong Teddy Atlas may come across when speaking about young Mike, I take care to listen to what he has to say about the adolescent boy-man. Tyson is an enigma whose every act is overly borne out of his insecurities. I believe that Tyson always tried to act to please others, but couldn't hide his true self ... so amongst rare moments of kindness and sportsmanship, a frightened bully, hitting after the bell, cheating, breaking down in his corner and being forced out for the next round, was always bubbling under the surface. Holyfield's calm resilience in the face of fire made that surface crack and surely, with a biting Tyson, a true facade of Tyson shines forth ... how predictable that he'd try to absolve himself from blame.

Reminds me of Mickey from the 'Rocky' movies. Fear can eat you up if you don't learn to channel it and use it as your best friend. When Ali was cautious about a fighter's power, higher guard, wide eyed, very alert in there ... look at just how subtle his defensive work could be against Foreman. Then you have those that fight purely on adrenaline, not learning to channel it and wearing themselves out down the stretch ... then you have a scenario like 'Rumble In The Jungle', where Ali's words, usage of the right hand lead and defiance enraged Foreman, a Foreman who naturally was prone to a rush of blood to the head ... end result, Foreman fought a fight that disadvantaged him and looking at the whole intensity of that unique environment, you have to say that the emotional aspects of the fight, definitely worked in Ali's favour.

Weight lifting that isn't functional is pretty much useless to a trained fighter. I found that I had to mimic movements, explosive moments that would aid my muay thai. Training like a body builder for the purpose of aesthetics is useless for a combat fighter ... training explosively, using plyometrics and functional movements can aid a combat fighter. I don't agree with the age old phobia of weight lifting ... as long as it's done scientifically with the purpose of training movements functional for the combat fighter, I advocate the use of weights in one's training.

Foreman threw his full body weight into a lot of his punches ... look at the conditions of Zaire and how many punches he wailed down on Ali. Any man of Foreman's size, throwing that amount of punches, with not a great deal of success, in addition to Ali wearing him down by manipulating his head via glove, forcing him to expend more energy, is going to tire. I don't think his stamina is as bad as people make it out to be, all things considered. However, I'm no apologist. If Marciano can take him to the 9th round and beyond, I think he'll eventually dump him like Lyle did ... only this time, with Marciano's workrate and power in both hands, I don't see Foreman getting up, due to fatigue.

However, I think that either Foreman clubs him into submission or the ref stops it. I, too, see Foreman clubbing Rocky behind the ear, as he weaves really low, and dropping him. Rocco would probably get up groggy and he'd be in real trouble. Foreman needs no encouragement to try to close the show and I cannot see a groggy Marciano holding his ground against the stronger, brutish George. I don't think Rocco would be really effective off the back foot. He doesn't have the reach and fighting a purely counter punching fight isn't in his nature. He'd have to stay back, wait for Foreman to mount offence, evade his punches and counter with his own. Foreman's chin is too good to be broken early, so Marciano would need to keep this strategy up for 7, 8, 9, 10? rounds ... I cannot see him fighting so unaturally for so long. I think that a Marciano forced backwards is a Marciano that has his best assets minimised and this suits Big George fine ... if Big George can keep him on the backfoot, I doubt that he even needs the 10 count ... I think the ref would eventually stop it.

In summary, I'll stick with my belief that Big George stops him ... although, he doesn't have the skill or stamina of Liston, he cuts the ring off better and is more forceful in imposing himself. I think the ability to impose his strength and set up his punches by demonstrating his strength stand him in good stead, here ... what say you?

 

Well thought out posts and a pleasure to read.

One big factor--to me anyway--regarding Commander Vander and Marciano has always subtracted a lot of those Holyfield chances in this hypothetical bout.
Resistence to body punching; I think Evander doesn't do this very well, but takes head shots much much better. Body shots from Qawi and Bowe in their first fights are easy to see that cummulative effect. Or Foreman. Even later on, that Toney bout was another example. I'm sure if Toney was headhunting in there, Holyfield absorbs on his way to a decision loss.

Marciano was terrific at body damage and used a 2 handed assault in there. Didn't he once say his favorite punch was to land a body shot as a counter after the other guy missed? Those shots aren't pretty and sure don't seem to count a lot on the scorecards, but after about 8 rounds of it, the other guy is in deep waters with nowhere to hide and only about 70% effectiveness left to cope with Marciano. I just see that Marciano body attack doing a real number on Evander, who will hang tough allright, but simply just get hit too much and once that gas tank gets emptied, he'll get stopped late.

 

Amazing reads. I am truelly impressed meta5 and stonehands, you have proven yourselves in a different league.