Could Evander Out Rocky Rocky?

I suspect -and hope, and pray- that if Evander started using roids, he did so at around the same time he started headbutting for fun -late in his career.

I suspect the same. The permissiveness or sadism of the ref may make a difference because after round 12 I think I'd almost ALWAYS favor Rocky.

I remember during the post-fight instructions of the first one (?), Holyfield is looking right through Tyson and didn't blink. He had a slight smirk I thought. Tyson stares right back -for about 3 seconds- and then his eyes never went above Holyfield's chest. That said it all.

Ali got Freudian on Foreman.

I'd lean towards Marciano on this one ever so slightly. Marciano would know that Foreman would bring only a temporary hell and would resolve to see round 6 and then take over. A Goldman strategem would be of minor importance in this one because it will ultimately depend on two (intangible) things:

1. Can Marciano survive the gamma-powered onslaught of 1973 George Foreman?
2. Can Marciano have enough left in terms of stamina and white blood cells to take over after Foreman begins to decelerate?

I say he is capable of two affirmatives there and trust that he would steel himself to both survive and take over.

Liston is different in terms of his having better ring generalship, discipline, and stamina than George, and that would prevent Marciano from imposing his will early or late. Both are stronger than Marciano but Liston brings more than that, and strength fades if you aren't disciplined. Rocky's discipline is what would see him through against Foreman... who may need a life raft after round 8.

 

Good points... and what further exacerbates the situation for Holyfield is that relative body builder's waist and Marciano's height disadvantage which brings him, like Qawi, accessibility to Evander's ribs.

 

I think that post Tyson, maybe even before Tyson, Evan introduced roids to his diet of punches, muesli, steel girders and biblical quotes.

Despite his reputation, Rocky's not really a bleeder ... as long as he's swinging, I think most refs will allow it to continue, no matter how dominant Liston may appear.

By round 12, I suspect that Liston has captured too many rounds for Rocky to catch up. I cannot see Rocky KO'ing him cleanly. However, there's certain intangiables raised by the Ali debacles about Liston's character, for my money. Is it impossible that Rocky can turn the heat up so much that Sonny would give way and sit out the 15th on his stool? Just what exactly is Sonny's perceived high durability reputation built off? How many times was he really pushed for a full fight? Rocky's an entirely different fighter to anything that Liston has seen ... at the same time, Liston is the same exact fighter for Rocky ... only, that Rocky is outsized, outpunched, outskilled and with Liston's high competence at all ranges, Rocky walks on dangerous ground, for my money.

I'll dig out the good ole DVD and check it later to confirm, but I do believe it was the second. I remember those prefight instructions well ... Holyfield exuberated confidence, Tyson ... doubt. In the first, the prefight instructions seemed short ... Tyson looked at Holyfield, not as menacingly as I expected, Holyfield looked straight through him. In the second, during the prefight instructions from Mills Lane, I think Holyfield was looking through his eyes with a quiet confidence, not exactly a smirk, but an "I've got you beat" look in his eyes. Don't quote me on this, but I think I recall Tyson seeming nervous, like he forced himself to look, but his natural tendency was telling him to avert gaze ... the atmosphere seemed like he submissively stepped backwards and conceded the initial mental initiative to Holyfield.

Guarantee that Freud was NEVER financially rewarded so handsomely when he was interviewing Austrian housewives.

Marciano would know it was a temporary hell ... but does that mean that he can avoid the onslaught? How do you see him having to fight to:

a) Keep from being put on the backfoot; and
b) Keep George's respect without getting into a slugging match, where IMO, George should be favoured (provided that it doesn't turn into a 15 round slugfest).

If Rocky does trump George, I agree that it will be caused by a disciplined performance. My concern is that George's chin is a top one. He may very well walk Rocky down and draw him into a slugfest. I'm also concerned that when George turns it on, very few could stand up under the fire. Counter punchers with good power, handspeed and reach could outlast the onslaught with a good defensive display, chin and courage, I'm not so sure about the sluggers, brawler and crouch-fighting fighters.

George could box and bang ... he had a very good, underutilised jab and his Peralta performance shows an aspect of his skillset. I'm concerned that he may utilise a little of both the free swinging George and the more technical George that he seemed to abandon in his first career.

I can definitely envisage your scenario more today than I did yesterday, upon reflection, but alas, I'd still make George the fave at least 6 times out of 10 ... how do you see the rythym of the fight going?

 

Please ... Stonehands is much more worthy of those kind of plaudits. I hardly bring anything to the forum these days ... Stonehands is levels above me and it may just be a case of him eliciting good debate from me. There are many more posters deserving of that kind of compliment ... thanks, but I cannot agree with you, mate.

 

I see Rocky getting stunned and going down and getting a little shaky at times against Liston. Rocky fought no one who combined comparable strength and power with superior skill. Richard Steele would be nervous in there, and I don't think many today would allow him to continue with no nose like they did then!

The statement within the statement is that while Rocky can be expected to come on late, Liston would have what it takes to neutralize the blockbusting onslaught.

I also believe that Liston did have heart and was a determined fighter. Cleveland was nailing him and he came on and stopped him -twice. Marshall, though no world-beater, did bust his jaw. Sonny kept on fighting to lose a decision. And let's not forget the heart and courage it takes to twist a police officer (in the south no less where they lynch ya) upside down and deposit him in a garbage can! I think that by 1964 he was old, didn't train, and couldn't bear getting knocked out by a smart-mouthed kid.

But yes, Rocco would rather have been shot than do what Sonny did against CLay/Ali.

That sounds accurate!

And I'd guess that Ali was probably smart enough not to say such things to George as "I'm your daddy" -which would, according to the Doc, trigger homicidal urges. Although he did claim to be God when he faced Frazier. A definite Messianic complex. Whatever.

Well, to be sure, that "ever so slight advantage" is shrinking but I have an idea how it could go. More tomorrow.. gotta go

 

Please ... META5 is much more worthy of those kind of plaudits. I hardly bring anything to the forum these days ... META5 is levels above me and it may just be a case of him eliciting good debate from me. There are many more posters deserving of that kind of compliment ... thanks, but I cannot agree with you, mate (paisan).

!

 

Ouch!

 

Yeah but, you can't condition a chin.

 

Okay. I would expect that George would train for Marciano much like he did for Ali -he'd do less cardio-vascular and work the heavy bag forever. I don't see George bothering with boxing at all -especially if you place this fight after Frazier and Norton. George would expect to overwhelm the smaller man and that is the going wisdom on this illustrious site. I'd expect it to be what the great trainers would argue too.

But that would be his mistake.

Marciano was not exactly "adaptable" but I do think that Goldman would make certain adjustments based on the anticipation of what George is going to do and how George is going to train -he's have Rocky stay low, keep weaving, crack the rips everytime a looping shot is launched. I'd expect training camp to have big sparring partners and have Rocky concentrate on positioning and defense.

Rocky would be offensive to be sure, but his objective would not be to trade with a relative giant, it would be to see round 6.

Now, getting close and staying there is tough because George shoved and kept smaller guys at bay with outstretched arms. Cus's opinion that George eats swarmers who needed forward motion haunts this whole analysis but I temper it only because of George's stamina issues and Rocky's inate ability to deal with serious adversity and win anyway.

Frazier connected on George -even while in peril. I see no reason why Rocco wouldn't do the same only more often. Joe is in my opinion not as strong as Rocky -not even close in terms of functional strength. And Rocky's stance made him stronger still (legs wide, crouched...).

Once the mid rounds arrive, George's strength and power will dissipate. I have no doubt. The problem is that Rocky's strenght and power does not. He trained his body for optimum strength, power, AND stamina.

Every round is round 1 to Rocky Marciano and that is the critical difference.

The first 3 rounds will be incredible to watch. I happen to think that Marciano will be harder for George to find than either Frazier or Norton because his style doesn't permit overhands, hooks, or jabs so easily. Those weaves of his were not predictable and actually doubled as leverage launches for his shots -while George is waiting for the "shark to breach", he'll be catching hooks to the sides himself.

I would be concerned with George rabbit punching. I'd expect Goldman to be demaning that the ref watch for those... I also see Foreman throwing Marciano right and left or pusnhing him back when he comes out of that crouch, but not often. Marciano would spread his legs wide enough to prevent himself from being so easily moved. Marciano also fought on a spring. I see Goldman adjusting Marciano's distance -first in so close to be sniffing Foreman's trunks but they'd also be a plan B.

George's chin is top notch but if he is stopped, and I don't see why Rocky couldn't stop him in the late late rounds, it would be due to exhaustion alone.

 

Facinating reading on this thread...Thanks Stonehands and meta!

 

This assessment totally flies against logic! I had a foregone conclusion of Foreman taking a hypothetical with Marciano...But you've mapped out a very solid scenario that could have possibly unfolded as you've stated! Great post!
I've come to appreciate more and more Rocky's mental toughness. a man who truly refuses to lose is not an easy man to engage regardless of the size differential in this fight. Rocky's psychological make-up is astounding to put it mildly. As stated I ca see your assessment coming to fruition. But there is something you may be overlooking in George's make-up. It's true that George isn't unbeatable, Lyle almost beat him, young DID beat him, and of coarse, Ali.
For your hypothetical, you picked the undefeated George...Fair enough, that may have been the best version of Foreman that existed...(I don't study the heavies as much as others). But a funny thing happened to Foreman following the loss to Ali and Young...He appeared and fought like a man was much stronger mentally. Between the cheeseburger jokes and the geriatric kidding, Foreman literally never took a backward step in the ring. It was amazing. I may be dramatically overstating this, but it appeared to me that Big George wasn't afraid of dying in the ring...that is what he fought like to me.
Back to the assessment!
I really like your outline re Marciano widening his BOS in order not to be moved from a spot and using leverage against Foreman by staying low...and your logic that Rocky wouldn't be susceptable to jabs, overhands, and hooks. you left out the main thing in foreman's arsenal he would employ against Marciano however, the uppercuts! If Marciano does stand in with George, those terrible uppercuts will find some portion of Marciano's anatomy...and they will have a telling effect, either earlier or later. Marciano would be damaged by physicallity of the fight. Both would!
Anyway, as stated before facinating reading! Just wanted to throw in two cents. This is a scary fight...

 

Thanks. I was considering only the prime George, which I believe is the 1973 version. The 1987+ Foreman was really a completely different beast. Stil a beast, but a different one. I do not believe that the latter version would be stopped -he learned how to pace himself and how to pick his shots as well as how to shorten them up. He was also stronger in there and due to the expanded shock-absorber neck, probably took an even better shot. The Reverend was, most importantly, a man on a mission... and those are dangerous guys.
That's a different fight requiring a different thread.

Deeply religious men who believe that holy wars happen in rings are men with a serious edge.

As per the uppercuts, they're loops too, but they arrive from under instead of over. And they're not as short and precise as Walcott's or Moore's. George is going to have to get down very low to throw these and Rocky was not as susceptible to these as he seemed to be. His defense was able to deal with these. He may also invite George to open up with these late because there is no other shot that provides such a window for counters.

And I agree that this is one one of the most scary fights out there among the HWs. Personally, I see Rocky handling Frazier and Norton, but George presents unique problems -but George has the vulnerabilities that would also make this extremely interesting.

 

Question for StoneHands and Meta,



Part of what made George so formidable in close was his brute strength. He would push the guy off him(like he did to frazier in Kingston) into range so he could tee off his hooks/uppercuts. Foreman was so strong he could do that, and frazier wasnt strong enough to prevent himself from getting bullied. However, Marciano is one of the stronger heavyweight champions of all time despite weighing near 190lb. Marcianos whole game plan is to get in close where he can use his leverage to his advantage. Will foreman be able to push back at will Hercules Marciano into range so george can tee off his shots on him, like foreman did to frazier? do you think this will be a factor in the fight?

 

I touched on that a little here:

When you have two guys fighting in close, advantage goes to the smaller man with the shorter arms. Marciano also had a very low center of gravity that he really increased by spreading his legs and bending low. Normally I'd take the lower guy with the big legs in a test of strength but Foreman was not your typical taller guy. He was thick and big -no Holyfield waist and pins on that beast. But I think that Foreman would have to step back for room in order to push Rocky because Rocky would be very close and punching very hard. When Rocky is not there or is trying to get there (close), he's going to have a problem because George will be shoving. I just don't see him moving Rocky with quite the ease that he did Frazier due to Rocky's positioning and his low crouch. Rocky also fought on a spring -watch his shots. The best ones come at you as if on a spring and that makes them explosive.

Whenever George extends those arms, he's gonna open windows because he's undefended. I think that George will be better off moving forward behind that jab that he used on Norton and both expecting misses and using the missed jab to set up and leverage the whallops to land on Marciano as Marciano emerges out of the crouch. If he tries to push him off balance, he may pay for it.

So, no, I don't see him pushing that Rock at will and I don't think it will be a factor. However, if you ask who's moving who backwards, I think that Foreman will be the one moving Marciano backwards. Marciano will try to stay close and either move the bigger man or prevent himself from getting manhandled. This is opens as a tough fight for Marciano because it will be the first time that he is not the stronger man in there.

The reason why I favor him anyway is because I believe that the strength advantage will be reversed after the mid-point. And a man who can throw a 70 punch combination on Archie Moore in round 6 with maximum force on them all is a man with the kind of conditioning that beats fighters with average or below-average conditioning. Watch Charles I. The man just does.. not... stop -and the last punch of the fight is a cement slab -just like the first.

Marciano must see round 6 in order to win -and that is no easy task for anyone who ever lived... but I am as confident that Rocky will see it as I am that Ali would have seen it. And after around that point, the tide will turn.