Could Evander Out Rocky Rocky?

... you simply fail to realise that in any thread worth reading, your posts are of a select few that really galvinise my interest for the subject matter. I very rarely enter forum debates these days unless I feel a need to correct what I consider glaring misrepresentations or to reason with the likes of yourself ... accept the plaudits, comrade.

 

The answer is no.

Evander can't out Rocky, Rocky himself.

His best chance is to try to out Evander him.

Never a given of course but always worth a try.

 

I'll come to your next point very soon. Yes, after the blasting of Frazier and Norton, George's confidence was at an all time high. He was feared throughout boxing, in the media and had the big, bad bruiser image with the public. Like many before and after him (most notably Rosario for me - he was a good boxer, but fell in love with the power), George fell in love with the power and more importantly, so did Saddler. Archie woulda had him hone his fundamentals, tighten the defence, develop straighter punching technique that incorporates full and proper use of leverage ... but hitting nothing but the heavy bag, avoiding cardiovascular conditioning is pretty much telling the opponent, "I'm going to blast you out in four, five or six rounds". Here is my problem with that ... that leaves George with no plan B ... when you match up with the ATGs, especially one with such potent intangiables as Marciano ... you shaft yourself with no vaseline if plan A doesn't succeed and you've got no plan B, let alone C, D and E.

I wouldn't necessarily call it a mistake ... in hindsight, perhaps, but I can't help but think that if George had beaten Ali in Zaire, we wouldn't be criticising his stamina or his training methods ... we'd be calling him a bonafide ATG destroyer that could potentially run through everybody on an H2H basis.

I'd say it was more recklessness than an outright mistake. Knowing what Marciano brings to the table and egotistically preparing to fight your fight and not make any adaptations for what you might encounter, in light of the circumstances post Frazier and Norton and pre-Ali ... I'd say they took a calculated risk. Therefore, I'd call it a reckless act ... one that could've logically been justified at the time.

What you're describing reminds me of aspects of Felix Sturm's performance against De La Hoya. There's a moment in that fight that makes me smile everytime that I see it. De La Hoya throws a hook, Sturm weaves under it and counters with a short, inside uppercut ... Hoya hooks with the other hand, if I remember correctly and Sturm weaves in the opposite direction and repeats the counter with the other hand. This is how I imagine Marciano having to fight ... so yeah, I agree with your opinion of what Goldman would have him focused on. Not necessarily staying low, but instantly making himself small, wound up like a tight coil, ready to spring his full body weight into Foreman's exposed ribs and solar plexis areas when George is in the process of throwing one of his loopies.

Basically, you'd say that Rocky would be an offensive counter puncher, using George's offence as triggers for his own? It's the staying close enough to connect without getting hurt that troubles me ... although, I can see Rocky surviving and outlasting him, when I think about how his style differentiates from Frazier's, I can still see a ref stopping the bout in Foreman's favour. If the ref allows Rocky to fight on unsteady feet and take masses of punishing blows, yes, he could very well catch up and stretch George for the count down the line, but I'll address this later on.

Frazier conntected and he, like Marciano, had a low centre of gravity, strong legs that facilitated the leverage behind his punches. George seemed to just shake em off and continue to walk Joe down ... now Joe is a big hitter, not quite as big as Marciano, but a big hitter nonetheless. Whilst Marciano may hit George more than Joe did, as long as George didn't tire too early and could land, I think he'd keep coming forward, forcing Rocky back, landing crushing blows.

A Foreman match up with Rocky concerns me, if not only for concerns that I have about some of Foreman's intangiables. Foreman obviously has great willpower and self belief. No middle aged man takes pummelings and has their face swollen to gigantic proportions and still carries on in their dream to regain the HW title, unless they are oozing with self-belief. However, Ali ... the Ali fight tells me that as a younger man, if someone could stand up defiantly against his ring monstrosity, he'd question himself, even so to the point that he self-admittedly had nightmares and he visibly changed his style because of the outcome of the fight. If Marciano can keep coming back, counter punch successfully, make George uncomfortable in there, make him have to think, throw him off his natural game by using it against him ... will George start to mentally crack? More than his stamina issues and Marciano's indomitable will and legendary stamina, will Big George start to defeat himself mentally?

Although Marciano may not have the mouth of Ali, who did back up his words that night ... actions do speak louder than words and I'm concerned that the sight of a Marciano that won't be defeated, keeps coming back and isn't getting tired in there would play havoc on George's mentality. Then again, like I said previously, Marciano's chin is untested against superheavyweights and although relatively average sized now, George's size and strength dimensions were gargantuan ... I just cannot predict how Marciano would hold up under the punishment ... then again, with his defensive subtleties, especially the ability to lessen the punch with subtle head movements and leans, just how cleanly would a telegraphing George connect?

It is the issue of the Marciano stamina and iron will that makes me see some light for Rocky. My gut just still tells me that Rocky will take a rabbit punch, that dazzles him, and the punch is immediately followed by a barrage of hooks and uppercuts. I think if George gets hurt to the ribs, he'd be even more prepared to throw rabbit punches and push Marciano into optimum range. The spreading of the legs is a proven technique for strenghtening one's base and defending against takedowns or being pushed ... I'm just concerned that the man who pulls jeeps up hills and carries cows across his shoulders is still gonna be too much for Rocky. I still see Rocky being moved backwards and therefore still see him not being able to utilise maximum leverage, being forced off balance at times, with George taking full advantage of this.

If George is stopped, as well as physical exhaustion, the mental exhaustion will play a major part. I've already highlighted George's mental intangiables possibly letting him down in a given scenario ... it is in this very scenario that I believe that Marciano has his best chance of overcoming what will be the fight of his career.

 

I agree in summary with Stonehands' opinion on the factors that will be brought up with the pushing. However, I think that George will be able to move Marciano just enough to throw Rocky off his game. Yes, the pushing will be a factor in the fight ... if not for anything, just because George will try it.

Marciano's inside functional strength is leverage and full body weight. Foreman's IMO was more upper body weight and leverage. Rocky, IMO used his leverage and body weight better, although I still think that Foreman was functionally stronger. Anecdotally, wrestling and grappling wise, shorter and stocky with a solid base and great balance make for a much better ring general and technician than a taller fighter whose balance isn't as good. I'd say that Rocky understood/was trained the principles of leverage better and this made him such a daunting prospect in close ... consistently inching forward, whether the opponent seemed to gauge it or not, the pressure that his continuous subtle movements placed on the opponent was very taxing. Add in the ability to outwrestle his man and impose his will ... not an easy task fighting an inside fight with Marciano.

I still see George being able to push him back ... not at will, but being able to nonetheless. I think George will miss more than ever if he just tries to tee off on Rocky in a consistently robotic manner. He has to mix it up, not let Rocky adapt to his patterns ... he also has to fight at a disjointed rhythm, sometimes, IMO. Once in a while, push Rocky back, initiate a clinch and try to get some rabbit punches in ... other times, four or five haymakers.

I think the key to this fight for George is fighting how he wamts to, without letting Marciano get into his rhythm ... if he can keep Rocky on the backfoot amd consistently back him up, I think he can do enough to force a referee to stop Marciano ... if not, Stonehands presents a very compelling argument.

 

Accepted, and returned.

 

... your additions to my premise have exceeded it. I completely agree. While I am sure that you'd agree that we have to use caution when predicting not only how a fight plays out, but how a fighter will train and strategize, we can nevertheless make educated guesses on what we do know about the fighter's history, patterns, and methods.

PS/ I believe that Archie was in the corner for Ali -and bore witness to George's stupid training camp. Incidentally, After Zaire, George blamed Archie for having a slower count than the ref when he went down, and George waited for Archie's cue to get up.

Fair enough, but after a certain point recklessness becomes "criminal recklessness" and "crime" is usually synonmous with "mistake" -excuse me for straining gnats. We more or less agree.

If the camp honored Foreman's apparant insistence in Zaire that he train to get his man out of there early with no real emphasis on stamina, I'd say that they made a debilitating mistake, not a calculated risk. I think it was a debilitating mistake against Ali and it would be the same against Marciano. Guys who are known for their will, endurance, their stamina and chin should be given the benefit of the doubt! It was a young man's mistake -even given the blasting of the relatively chinny Frazier and Norton.

Sturm. That's a good comparison.

Oh, make no mistake. Marciano's chances are no more than 55%! What you see the ref doing is easy to see.

My reasoning about Rocky's offensive countering is more a matter of necessity. They'd see that Rocky being purely defensive through the early Foreman onslaught would itself be a debilitating mistake. Foreman, if given nothing to think about from the smaller man, if given no consequence, would roll over Marciano like a 220 pound African-American TANK. Marciano cannot afford to eat shots to land his own like he was able to do against Ezzard Charles and Rex Layne. He would have to be very aware of the nukes flying around him and land hard shots himself. He may get lucky, but he would likely force George to take care. Marciano hits like hell.

I believe that Marciano would be better prepared for George than Joe was, I think he'd land more, be less likely to be forced back at the behest of George's will, and he has a chin that is far better.

What is a good chin? A good chin is part jaw structure, part mystery, part luck (ex/where the incoming shot lands and with what force), part conditioning, and part Descartes (points for anyone who gets that). Rocky, as John Garfield asserted in another thread, seemed to get stronger when he went down -which was only twice. He was the quintessential never-say-die man-machine.

I was ready to pounce on the extreme difference between young George and old George but you beat me to the punch.

A little observation. I believe that physical conditioning is the secret to will. Name the top lionhearts in Ring history. They were all supremely conditioned, where they not?

You've got to be able to count on your lungs before you can count on your heart.

Guys with strong hearts and no lungs take beatings and will fold. Their spirit is willing but their flesh is weak. I would not question George's heart in Zaire, as Teddy Atlas does for instance, because it was really a matter of conditioning. George was exhausted. Against Stewart and Moorer he paced himself and conserved his energy. Personally, when in the ring, I'd want to go home -not when I was taking big shots but had energy, but when that panic came in after realizing "oh sh*t, I got nothing left in the tank." It's like your arms fell off right there in the ring. I suppose it is the same feeling you'd get if you are in a gunfight and you realize too late that you brought a water pistol instead of your trusty 38 special.

 

He put Carmine Vingo in critical condition. Vingo was the same size almost to the pound as George and had a serious shot. However, Marciano, from what I can barely see in the 8mm, get close and punched the hell out of him. Rocky, green as he was, was staggered but never down and ended matters in the 6th.

Rocky said in 62 that it was the toughest fight of his career, but I suspect that George would make that fight seem like hopscotch.

"....I'm just concerned that the man who pulls jeeps up hills and carries cows across his shoulders is still gonna be too much for Rocky." Hahah! Yep. Me too. But avering towards intangibles before size and strength in a fight like this is where I think we both slightly lean. Had 1973 Foreman had the requisite discipline and stamina to go 15 hard rounds against a man who was boxing's equivalent of Jason Voorhees, I'd favor him.

As it is, I chose Rocky by the slightest of margins by late KO against a completely spent Foreman.

 

Ezzard Charles always reminded me of Holyfield ,but Quawi was a fighter similar to Marcianos style but not as strong and as Rocky and not as conditioned.While i will always agree that Holyfield was a great conditioned fighter i honestly beleive Rockys stamina was probably even better he just never stopped and his power stayed with him from the opening bell till the last bell,truly remarkable

 

Yes, our mutual educated guess tells us that he would train exactly the same way that he did for Ali, if it were '73 Foreman, undefeated and on top of the world.

This isn't even an educated guess that constitutes as a considerable leap of faith for me ... it is absolutely certain in my mind that Foreman would approach Marciano as if Rocky were Smoking Joe.

Yeah, Archie was in the corner, but I believe that it was Saddler who encouraged Foreman to focus more and more on the power. George blaming Archie ... well, add it to the drugged water and any other number of excuses or blame attributing that a broken George did back then.

Forgive me for making this an issue of semantics. For all intents and purposes, we are wholly agreed. It was a mistake ... a reckless mistake borne of underestimating the fight in the dog and the youthful naive belief of one's own invincibility.

I concur ...

That is one of the reasons why I had doubts that the ref would allow it to continue. The Marciano I envisage from your strategic description sounds like he will employ traits of a Duran and Dempsey in there with George. I just have a difficult time reconciling that defensive image with what I know of Marciano. That, in itself, may be a negative against my analysis of Marciano as a fighter, or a highlight of my lacking requisite depth of knowledge of Marciano, as a fighter.

If Marciano fights George like he did Ezzard, eating shots to land his own, he's the equivalent of waking up next to Magic Johnson after a drunken night with no pharmacy open for protection purposes ... royally fooked. If he can stay in the pocket, negate George's pushing and grappling techniques, countering by making him miss and making him pay, Rocky may very well suck the will out of '73 Foreman.

Yes, after FOTC, Joe didn't have the same spark for boxing ... he wasn't as fired up for the fight as he was when facing Ali for the first time. This distinction is enough of an intangiable to affect the outcome of a fight. Marciano definitely had a better chin, was functionally stronger, punched harder and was a true two handed puncher. I'd even say that whilst Joe's headmovement was more rhythmic, more smooth ... Marciano's was more unpredicatle ... harder to time, so therefore, he may actually avoid getting hit as openly and devastatingly as Joe got hit by George.

I'm careful to draw distinction between the version of Joe that Ali faced for the first time and the version that George faced for the same time. Nonetheless, it's still ATG Joe Frazier, undefeated champ, who should never get beaten like that ... can I draw absolute parallels or do I suggest that it's irrelevant to a Marciano and Foreman match up? I tend to give it a gentle push towards the boundary of it serving as persuasive precedent.

Give me my points, monsieur learned friend ... Descartes, "I think therefore I am". Ali thought that he was the greatest and could take on anyone in the world and beat them. So where the world thought Foreman would destroy him, Ali encourages Foreman to punch him continuously ... once again, he shook up the world because he had an infatiguable belief that he could do so.

Marciano believed that he couldn't lose ... he refused to lose, he refused so badly that he'd die in the ring before he lost ... he never lost a professional fight.

Essentially, as well as thick neck muscles, rolling with punches, good jaw structure, great balance to distribute weight and brace yourself when on the receiving end of a haymaker, the ability to believe and honestly believe and hold true that you cannot be knocked out, increases the ability to take a punch - it's the psycho-somatic connection.

:good

This is why I made the earlier distinction between being in great aesthetic shape and great cardiovascular shape. That is one of the worst moments ... for me, it was when going to do a push kick, finding that your legs just wouldn't move from their resting place. It's a horrible feeling and one that is poison for a fighter's mentality. Rocky never knew that feeling, as far I can gather ... that's part of what made him so special.

 

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I would say that Rocky's ability to overpower all of his opponents -or at least take them to hell and leave them there during his reign skews our perception of what he would do against an obviously more powerful, aggressive, and larger man. Simply put, Marciano did what he was able to do against smaller or older challengers but to try the same against Foreman would be a study in lunacy. Rocky was a student of the science of boxing and Goldman could be counted on to make the necessary adjustments.

I'm honest enough to concede that the more I watch the first 3 rounds in my head, the more distant become Marciano's chances -unless the ref is the Marquis de Sade. I believe that he would survive, but the question quickly becomes whether or not an ordinary mortal like your average referee would allow him to continue. We agree.

How do feel about calling it a suggestive precedent?

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Absolutely. I think that it was the crux of all of his success -the foundation of a formula containing two-fisted power, physical strength, and an awkward style.

 

The Reason I Would Not Discount A Marciano Victory Over The Likes Of Foreman And Liston Are 1) Because Marciano Was Better Than Most Think On Defence. 2) I Remember The Lyle Fight And Its Not So Much (what Would Happen When Foreman Landed But How Would Foreman React To A Marciano Punch And With Foreman Leaning Into Marciano's Crouch, He Would Be Open To Counters And Weird Angled Shots. Liston Would Be A More Differcult Fight(you Would Think Because Of The Jab But Marciano Was Good At Slipping The Jab And This Was Noted By Louis, Walcott And Charles. I Think This Fight Would Come Down To Heart And How Well The Other Fighter Takes A Punch And For How Long (i Think Marciano Came Out Of The Trenches Better Than Liston And That Is Where Sonny Gets A low Score And Where Marciano Get An A+. As Far A Evander And Foreman Both Had Heart But Foreman Lacked In Stamina And This Proved True In The Ali And Young Fights. Foreman Also Came Close To Getting Ko'd By Lyle Who Could Hit But Was Not Realyy An Elite Puncher. Mabey One Of The Better Punchers That Foreman Faced But Check His Record, Lyle Was No Puncher. A Evander/marciano Fight Would Be A War But Several Fights Like Moorer, Bowe,bean...evander Lost Stamina...bert Cooper And Last But Not Least The Body Shot Beating By Toney Would Make Me Believe Marciano Was Better Equpted To Prevail.

 

The defensive aspect of his evasive style that worries me is just how low he gets when he ducks. Dempsey would sometimes have his torso parallel to the ground when ducking, but his upperbody and especially headmovement was much quicker and less readable than Marciano's for my money. Marciano's is excellent, don't get me wrong, I'm just concerned that for a brief moment, he won't be able to see anything but the canvas and a couple of feet in front of his feet. I think that if he ducks as low as that, he possibly blindsides himself to one of George's uppercuts ... if he doesn't use his feet to create distance and he insists on ducking that low, I think George can nail him before Rocky has a chance to brace himself to take the impact.

It is these adjustments that make the match up so interesting. I'd honestly be intrigued to see just exactly what Goldman has Rocco change and to see how un/successful these changes may prove to be.

Last man standing ... I put my money on Rocco ... Queensbury Rules, with a fair-minded, unsadistic referee ... I think Rocco picks up his first 'L'.

Suggestive is equally as appropriate in my mind ... it allows us to infer based on stylistic similarities, but it doesn't definitively presume a result. I can live with that.

When you study certain fields of academia, you don't forget them in a hurry

Funnily enough, because I've been watching more of Rocco due to this thread, my rating of him as an ATG has increased. I think it's the same as when I went through my intense Duran analysis: the more things that I pick up, the greater my appreciation of the ring craft. Behind the brute of Rocco, was an aggressive, technically competent, offensive counter puncher ... is he another one that we now hold up as a proponent of good defence when on the offensive?

 

Great Rock footage on that u-tube. He was a complete heavyweight enigma, one of the greatest...

 

Ali even said while filming he was very suprised at how hard it was to catch Marciano with a jab.And he was an older man at the time

 

Dempsey and Marciano's offense was largely based on their defense. They combined evasion (d) with leverage (o) -and what is that if not efficient?? However, Jack would get perpendicular and weave with quickness and agility like you said. Rocky's power was heavier... so his weaves were more like wades -he's wading in to slam you with a rib breaking shot. He was aping Dempsey to some degree and it wasn't pretty; he looks easy to hit -but precise punchers like Moore and Charles and Walcott were seeing more than us and they were in there real-time. He surprised them both with his defense. As per the uppercuts -Remember that Foreman is going to have trouble getting down that low and scooping up with those particular shots. There will be windows, my friend, big ones for Marciano to counter. If Marciano invites enough uppercuts and is prepared for them, he may be able to sweep up and over with a left hook. Or he could be knocked into tomorrow.

Goldman says:
"I gotta a guy who's short, stoop-shouldered, balding, got two left feet and, God, how he can punch."

Who knows... perhaps Goldman's strategy may have been an expose and we'd be talking about Foreman as if were Elmer Ray.

Fair enough. I slightly favor Rocky either way with an asterick. Let them fight in 1954 and I favor him more than I would in the nervous era that we're in now.

I would not uplift him as any kind of defensive genious, but he was a study of what the Greeks and Romans called "virtu". And he is the undisputed boss of the intangibles: devotion to his craft, unheard of conditioning, determination, self-belief, courage under fire, etc.


He was relentless. The bell would ring, he would be on you. The bell would ring, he stopped. The bell would ring again, he'd be right back on you," George Foreman on Rocky Marciano. Can you hear his teeth chattering??