Could Frazier defeat Foreman, ever?

I could understand George being nervous before their first fight,but not their second one. He wanted a rematch with Ali,and said he was n't scared of him. Now if he was n't scared of a man who beat him,there was no reason for him to be scared of a guy whom he'd beaten.

 

from the two fight ive seen with them id say no. No dissrespect to frazier, I love that guy but styles makes fight

 

Too old.

 

Foreman knew that the road to an Ali rematch meant that he'd have to fight Frazier again. He didn't initially want to fight Frazier again considering Joe's performance against Ali in Manilla. Foreman didn't think Frazier was a "scenic rest stop, " according to his book. In fact, he was second guessing himself about the rematch and his confidence was diminishing until Joe Louis spoke to him, saying Frazier would be a tune up for him. Only then, did Foreman regain some of his confidence.

 

no

 

The best time for Joe to initially take on George would have been after Foreman-Chuvalo, in mid to late 1970. The date when Frazier crushed Bob Foster while Big George simultaneously steamrolled Boone Kirkman might have been a suitable occasion. Now, I don't know that Joe could have avoided an early loss to Foreman in a first time meeting, but this thread is asking if Frazier could have done it ever. I believe that FOTC Joe could indeed have regained the title in a rematch situation, especially if a quick stoppage in the first match left him still remaining with a full tank.

Frazier's weight would be critical here. Coming in under 205 pounds, as he did for his first five title fights, he'd enjoy greater mobility. In peak condition, he could certainly be hurt and dropped, but was also better able to recover. He adapted very well in rematching George when hopelessly shot. His change in tactics and strategy then offers tantalizing clues as to how an FOTC Smoke may have approached Foreman in an early to mid 1971 return go as a former champion attempting to regain his crown.

Ingo destroyed Patterson in 1959. Floyd came back. I think Joe could have done likewise to an overconfident Foreman not likely to be prepared for an extended war of attrition. Frazier would need to take him into the championship rounds. Once there, he had the resurgent firepower to take out a fatigued and less experienced giant.

Even in 1976, Joe's hook marked up Foreman's eye. At full potency with prime regularity, he might have been able to close it up, blinding George to further hooks.

Gil Clancy had taught Foreman to shorten up his punches by 1976, but I'm discussing the more free swinging slugger of the early 1970s, and that's the version I think Frazier would have had the better shot at in a second try.

Smoke was sidestepping and moving about Ron Stander with ease, literally dancing circles around him at the end of the concluding round. Foreman had advantages in reach and punching power Stander lacked, but Joe had also lost his recuperative powers with the FOTC. Once George stunned him in Jamaica, Frazier was never able to get his head cleared to outmaneuver him and survive the crisis.

Big George never came close to putting a shot Frazier down for the count. Waive the three knockdown rule, and a peak Smoke could well come roaring back against a spent Foreman (who would almost certainly stagger and empty his guns early against his smaller target).

At the outset of the championship rounds, George would have an insurmountable lead in the scoring. Joe, knowing this and planning for it, could have pulled this off sometime in the final three rounds.

 

Frazier survived the 3rd round. Frazier won the 4th. That wasn't the point of the footage. The point of the footage was to show how a different strategy may have benefited a younger Frazier. Not how a post third fight with Ali version of Frazier was incapable of pulling off a smarter fight plan and get the win.

 

Good points Duodenum.

One thing you mentioned is that Joe Frazier, near his prime weight of 205 lbs had more mobility than he showed against Foreman in Jamaica. Why nobody else understands this fact of Frazier's decline is beyond me. Frazier in better shape makes George miss a lot more punches with the angles and attacks him to the body much quicker. It also helps if the ref doesn't allow Foreman's wrestling and shoving tactics.

I believe that a prime Frazier who fights Foreman in the same way he fought George Chuvalo, would have done a whole lot better. Chuvalo backed up Frazier in that fight, only to see Joe use more pivoting and circling, while throwing his jab to the body and head to set up his hooks. Joe went straight at George believing he'd slip the jab and nail him with the hook. Foreman deserved credit as a gold medalist and athlete which Joe didn't give him, and even Eddie Futch believed Foreman wouldn't have been much of a problem.

Frazier showed better, patient tactics the second time around in Uniondale, but I don't think he would have fought Foreman like that in the first fight if he was in his prime shape. Joe's offense was pressure and attacking the body which is bad news against a big puncher no doubt. However, prime Joe wouldn't have caught as many of George's big shots, because he made Ali miss punches with his head movement and there's a huge difference in hand speed between Ali and Foreman.

 

He wouldn't, but he would land eventually and that's just the point. He may last longer but Foreman bombs on him and Joe will be in trouble forever. If Bonavena almost drops Frazier 3 times in 1 round then Foreman gets him down once and has Joe in serious trouble till stoppage.

The Douglas and Tyson is analogy is good but not as apt because Tyson could find a way to beat Douglas. For Frazier, stylistically and of course the fact that he just can't take the power he basically has very very slim of a chance.

If it is worth anything I think the Douglas of Tokyo beats any version of Tyson unless he gets robbed on the scorecards. He whooped Tyson virtually every round. Tyson didn't fall off the map that much - maybe Tyson wins his fair share of rounds but Douglas was fighting a perfect fight with desire and nothing to lose.

*Edit* Thanks Magoo, you did for me too lol - it appears the latter broke before me.