Could have Mike Tyson reigned as champion for 3 years in the 1960's ?

1798

 

He is an elfo from the lord of the rings

 

It's the other way around. Cus trained Tyson since he was a kid to beat up Ali type boxers.

This department is totally irrelevant to the outcome of a fight.

This is just an Ali description that has been rooted in people's as the absolute truth with the passing of time, although in many respects it's quite the opposite.
For example, Ali's radical anti-war stance was based more on the fact that he’d joined and frantically supported (even with money) the Nation of Islam.
Ali considered himself "anti-establishment", yet he had no trouble supporting Ronald Reagan and George Wallace, the segregationist Alabama governor who ran for president in 1968.
Ali was also a misogynist, and he was not shy to make his opinion known to everyone. And his actions speak even louder than his words. He treated his 4 wives horribly, he had countless affairs, cheated on them all the time (including with underaged women) and he humiliated them publicly.
The so called "anti-racism hero" labeled his black opponents Ernie Terrell, Floyd Paterson and Joe Frazier as an “Uncle Tom.”
He also mocked Frazier relentlessly and called him a "gorilla" and that Frazier was “so ugly his face should be donated to the bureau of wildlife". He also called Frazier ”the white man’s champion". Because of Ali's actions, poor Frazier and his family received death threats.
He did all this despite that fact that Frazier was the one who helped him financially during the exile.
A lot of people call him a "black power advocate" , yet very few talk about how he ridiculed and insulted his "black brothers” in order to further his career, while never speaking out against white men like Marciano who always called him “Clay.”
Ali was a man who spoke about "black freedom", yet he had no problem introducing his mistress Veronica Porche to his pal, dictator Ferdinand Marcos.
His disregard for human rights and his greed is also showcased very well by agreeing to fight Foreman in Zaire, thus advertising the regime of a sociopat like Mobutu. Ali said that he wanted to establish a relationship between black American and Africans, yet he didn't say a word about the poor *******s who were housed in detention cells under the stadium where the fight took place.

So you can take your "Ali was a great man" stuff and shove it up your arse.

Given that Liston was around 40 years old at the time, barely trained and had a shoulder injury, that ain't that big of a deal.
Not to mention the blatant dive that Liston took in their second fight.

Frazier was able to corner him, yet Tyson, who is twice the fighter Frazier was, would not. YEA RIGHT, KEEP DREAMING.

It didn't end too well for him when he faced Frazier, did it !!!!

Again, Liston was 40 years old. That's not exactly a spring chicken. And Liston wasn't exactly known for his blinding speed, was he ?
Not even in his prime (second half of the 50s).
And Liston didn't blind him at all. The Monsel's solution Liston's corner were using to treat his cuts got in Ali's eye during clinches. Either that, or the ointment they rubbed on his injured shoulder. Dundee attested to that himself.

 

Actually he was a member of Billy the kid’s gang

 

In response to Johnny B:

1st. I appreciate you reading my entire post. I believe you made good points.

I recently read a book on Ali and his friendship with Malcolm and Ali was a huge disappointment to me. He turned his back on Malcolm and was used by the NOI. Still Malcolm greatly respected Ali.

Ali’s disrespect of Frazier was horrible, no question. He would have acted much worse to Tyson and it would have affected Tyson much more because Tyson was not the man the Frazier was in any sense of character.

Ali treated his wife’s poorly. I don’t know enough to comment more. Nor do I know much about Zaire or his political stances outside of his Civil Rights stances.

With that said, to say Ali wasn’t a great man is and a hero to millions of black and white Americans and Africans and just about every person around the world is wrong. For all his flaws he was beloved because of his personality, his principles and his ability to identify with the common person much more than any of the sports figure had this side of Babe Ruth. Flawed but the 60s was a time a war on every front for black Americans and Africans everywhere and was certainly their hero.

Liston a great fighter period. In hindsight one may say he was this and that in the fights with Ali but the truth is Ali might as well have been Buster Douglas coming into this fight with Liston. No one had Ali.

Liston quit in both fights and it means nothing. Ali would have beaten him no matter what. He was that great!

Ali lost to Frazier, then beat him. Then he stopped the man who destroyed Frazier (Foreman) for good measure...and then, stopped Frazier for closure. Liston twice, Frazier twice and Foreman. I find it hard to imagine any boxing fan not respecting these accomplishments. Furthermore Tyson has nothing on his resume anywhere near any of this. If so name it.

Tyson who was great did not corner and KO: Holyfield, Lewis, Douglas.

 

I believe he realized his mistake latter in his life, but by then it was already too late.

Ali might be perceived as a hero, but I just pointed out that he was sometimes who did the exact opposite of what he preached. He insulted and belittled his fellow black people in order to big himself, which is by no means admirable.
And most people have remained with this image of him being a saint, when in fact he did many bad things in his youth.

Given the stylistic matchup and the fact that Liston was not that fast, it is very possible that Ali would have beaten any version of Liston.
BUT the fact remains that Liston was old. And since a lot of people don't credit Tyson for beating Holmes, why wouldn't the same be true for Ali vs Liston ?

Yes, but when they were both closest to their prime, Frazier beat him. And Frazier was half the boxer Tyson was.
In their return bout, Ali kept holding and pushing Frazier’s head down throughout the entire fight (a foul but never any warnings much less point deductions from the referee) thereby taking away Frazier’s inside fight game, and got the decision.
By the time of their 3rd match in 1975, Frazier had become a shell of his former self. Ali should’ve made light short work of a faded opponent with only partial vision in his left eye. Yet, it was a toe-to-toe war for 14 rounds which Ali won when Futch threw in the towel despite Frazier’s protest, just as Ali himself was about to quit and wanted his cornermen to cut off his gloves. Ali collapsed just seconds after that. We will never know what might have happened had Frazier gotten off the stool for that final round but it’s not unreasonable to assume Ali would have lost.

That was Ali's greatest win. Yet it is hard not to point out the fact that Foreman punched himself out and never landed any power punches to Ali's head.

Tyson doesn't need to have that on his resume. Nobody's claiming Tyson's greater. All I've ever claimed is that Tyson would have beaten Ali prime vs prime.

He never fought any of these men while he was in his prime.
Although he was still in his physical prime, Tyson in 1990 was not the same fighter who had cleaned out the division with Rooney by his side. The turmoils in his personal life prevented him from focusing on boxing and training properly. Plus, the loss of Rooney also meant a decay in his defensive skills which IMO where his main asset.
And the 90's Tyson was even weaker, just a head hunter.
I'm not even mentioning the Lewis fight, cause he was a shot fighter by then, who only fought for a paycheck.

 

Understood.

For perspective, you give Ali a hard time for wins against All-time greats by meticulously pointing out their flaws, too old (Liston), punched themselves out (Foreman) half the fighter Tyson is (Frazier) yet give Tyson every benefit of the doubt in his actual loses.

You criticize Ali’s character but neglect Tyson’s own flaws, especially with women.

Ali ruled boxing in the 60s exiled, then came back last prime and took right back over ruling until the late 70s. By contrast Tyson ruled boxing for three years, went to prison, came out and was at best a titlist, but failed to rise to the occasions against great fighters.

He was closer to his prime in the Holyfield that Holyfield was, yet he was systematically outboxed and KOed.

H2H, Tyson never came close to beating a fighter of Frazier, Foreman, Liston, Shavers, or Norton. In Tyson’s loses he was outboxed and put away. Ali is a better boxer in the division history. (I would hear an argument for a few others like Louis or Walcott but not too many more)

 

Just that one fight. Ali would have been WAY too smart for Mike. And...boy, people will hate me for this...Mike Tyson on his best day wasn't 1974 George Foreman. No way.

Other than that, I think Mike had a REALLY good chance of beating Ali any other time in the 70s. The 60s?

Ha ha. NO.

 

I agree. Tyson was faster, better defensively and an ATG puncher in his own right.

 

Ali got worse and worse in the 70's obviously. At some point Tyson would have beaten him. The fly in the ointment is that Ali would have motivated for such a dangerous animal just as he did against Foreman so some of his off performances might not count as much as we think.

 

I'm just setting the facts straight.
And I also give Ali the benefit of doubt for losing to Holmes and Berbick, those fights are irrelevant.

No, I don't neglect Tyson's, he has his own. But I was just making the point that Ali wasn't quite the saint some people make him out to be.

Again, nobody disputes that. That's why Ali is greater, but it does not mean he'd beat Tyson prime vs prime.

One's prime has got nothing to do with age. Holyfield was far closer to prime than Tyson. Yes, his stamina and speed diminished a bit, but Holyfield's skill set was still there, he had honed his skills against the very best in the business.
On the other hand, Tyson only had fought for 8 rounds after a 3 and half year layoff. Furthermore, he no longer possessed the same skillset. He wasn't moving the same, bobing and weaving his way in, he was getting hit a lot more, he rarely landed combos and jabs, and was not as disciplined.
Holyfield was 80-85% of his prime self, Tyson was 50-60% at best.

Tyson would have easily defeated Frazier, Shavers and Norton, they're nowhere near as good as him.
Foreman poses problems from a stylistic point of view, but he's way too slow to beat Mike. All he has is a puncher's chance.
Liston is the only one that cause Mike problems. And the outcome of such a fight is unclear, it could go either way.

Ali is a greater boxer, not a better boxer, there lies the difference.

Ali was not a very skilled boxer. But he was better than many boxers that were more skilled than him, meaning he could beat them due to his great physical attributes (speed, reflexes) and his intelligence.