Could have Mike Tyson reigned as champion for 3 years in the 1960's ?

True Sangria, but who's fault then that Kevin Rooney abandoned him? A smart fighter stays with like they say, who brought you to the dance. You make a strong point, but if Tyson was wise he would have stayed with Rooney instead of the Yes Men leeches that hung around him. I think perhaps he could have made peace with Teddy Atlas, he would have been good for him moving forward. But you do make a strong argument. Glad to debate you on good terms, I respect you for your candid opinions. You have your opinion on this subject, I still have mine.

 

Eddie Futch, Teddy Atlas, Emanuel Steward have all stated that Tyson became a different fighter after firing Rooney. It's all documented, in newspaper articles, books and boxing magazines of all sorts. And this was back when it was live and fresh and happening in front of our own eyes.

When public sentiment also agrees to this, something must be clicking.

 

Show me the evidence then please, I am open to it.
Also I saw a claim that Liston had a shoulder injury going into the first fight. I would like an links to evidence of this from someone_maybe I was just unaware of it.
But even if Liston was, born in 1938, he would have not been "nearly 40" for the first fight with Ali.
Unless you are claiming he was born by 2/25/38, he would have been 36. "Near" 40 should be at least closer to 40 than 35-not 37 or less.

I am being a stickler here-but tons of folks massage things like heights & weights (read: exaggerate or lie about them to suit thier points)-& it is best for acuracy & credibility to not manipulate facts to suit agendas.

 

If that is so, he drops out of my top 10 for sure. If you need someone else that much when you're already the formed product, you're not great.

 

Right. But that's not my argument. Tyson messed up and paid for it. And who knows, we saw Tyson at the Spinks post fight press conference stating that could very well be his last fight. Maybe that was code for not having the ambition anymore. Doesn't mean he wasn't a great fighter.

 

And if Ali and Dundee split in 62, Ali loses to Henry Cooper. Trainers and cornermen make a huge difference,whether u like to admit it or not.
Just look at how Lewis and W. Klitschko dominated the HW division after teaming up with Steward.

When it comes to Tyson and Rooney, the biggest asset Rooney brought was the fact that he kept Tyson on track and focused on boxing. Rooney used to run with Tyson to make sure Tyson actually runs and trains properly. Plus he knew the peek-a-boo style better than anyone else. So if Rooney would have been replaced with another trainer, that wouldn't have been a problem as long as that trainer knew the ins and outs of the style and kept Mike on track and training. Instead of that, Mike had to contempt with incompetent fools.

 

That's your opinion. Rooney kept him in shape and on point. Everyone here thinks they know better. The guy was 21/22 years old.

 

Excellent. And Holyfield had Tommy Brooks bring in Gary Bell and David Tua to simulate Tyson in sparring. Brooks doesn't work Holyfield's corner and maybe Bell and Tua don't prepare him for Tyson as well.

 

You know he was talented for his era, so was Ali and countless others. I think that both Tyson and Ali faced some barriers in their respective careers. Tyson was at the top of his game heading into 1990, he had been the youngest champion at the age of 20, he won the title, yet unified the title. But as you eluded to, he lost the drive and ambition to stay on top. Muhammad Ali was at the top of his game when he was stripped of his title in 1967, what if he had continued and joined the reserves. He may have lost his edge as well, ambition. And maybe lost to a low ranked challenger. Both fighters only fought what fighters were available in their respective era's. Look forward my friend to further debates, I do see your point.

 

Done a Tyson re-run, tonight. Watched the early rds of Smith, Biggs, Tucker and Douglas. Douglas that night beats any version of Tyson. I just can't see it any other way.

And the talk about no jab, no head movement and body punching is just BS. He does more of all those than against Tucker. The problem is that he gets beat to the punch so many times that he starts to hesitate. At one time in the second or third he slips to the right of a Douglas jab, but Douglas's cross comes right over and catches him flush. Those kind of things will make you second guess what you're doing. When someone starts timing you, everything goes out the window. Especially when there's 230 lbs behind the punches he's timing you with.

 

If you can't keep your focus without a baby sitter, you're not that great. And he should have known the ins and outs of his style by the time Rooney left - at Tyson's absolute peak,

Let's not forget that Tyson had the extremely rare benefit of working with a world class trainer from the very start of his boxing days. He had been drilled by that team almost 10 years when he split with Rooney and had had seven title fights. In that sense, he was a very old 22 when it came to boxing experience. If he came apart in his skills just because he split with one person, then he was flawed to begin with.

 

It's funny how Tyson's biggest fans portray him as a mental midget. As soon as he was without his security blanket he was toast, according to them. But still he's supposedly the best ever?

 

I believe that Muhammad Ali's first trainer coming out of the 1960 Olympics was the great Archie Moore, that was assigned to him by the Louisville Group. Then he became dissatisfied with Moore's discipline, then joined with Angelo Dundee. Ali 's partnership with the Louisville Group expired in 1966, then Herbert Muhammad took over.

 

Oh Linus.

 

Yep. Would be interesting how Ali would have turned had he stayed with Moore. But Ali just didn't have the patience to be drilled like that. Too bad in a way. If someone could have made a HW SRR out of Ali, it would have been Moore.