Could Jersey Joe Walcott and Archie Moore score knockdowns against...

Marciano-Frazier-----Pardon me for putting this note on this thread, but I think you will read it here. I started a thread asking for definitions of exactly what the definition of a lineal champion is, especially when the old champion retires. I would appreciate your views.

 

Good thread, yeah, of course they COULD floor them...

 

J.J.Walcott could drop you with either hand and he was a slick pinpoint puncher with good footwork and movement,he could be eratic at times and he was a late bloomer like Bernard Hopkins and Toney, but Walcott was always fit and I think could upset a few of the ATG's on a given night..I would pick him over Tyson in an upset and he would give Ali and Holmes fits. Look at Moore " the OLD Mongoose" even in his loss to Ali 8 yrs after he fought Marciano and he landed some good ones on Ali before getting stopped but you can only imagine in his prime. I think the Foreman fight would be a tall order for ARCHIE but then again Lyle had Foreman down, bigger but not a harder puncher than Archie. I like Walcott because of his right hand over Holmes, he could proberly DROP Larry before winning a UD and I like his chances to floor Ali (look at his hook vs Charles) I know a lot of the young guys will call this blasphamy but I see it that way. Lewis, Dempsey, would have a lot of trouble with Walcott and Moore could drop anyone if he went on the offensive, I seen Evander hurt vs BurtCooper and dropped by body shots by the 37 year old 5"9 Toney so its not hard for me to invision

 

Please spare me. Any fighter can knock anyone down. But Ali fought Banks in his 11th fight and he was only 20 against Moore who he battered. Ali was hardly in his prime so stop twisting things around to make Archie look great. He got KO'd in 4 as a young Clay predicted. I was just reading the boxing records of Marciano's first 20 opponents (Ali was champ by then). Shocking.

 

How can Ali be champ??
By the time Marciano was fighting his first 20 or so foes, which range from 1947-1949 or so??
Not unless Ali was a baby or so When he held the title.

 

He meant # of fights.

 

In that case, Ali was in a other time in this regard though. In Ali's day, it was getting to be pretty common to get a title fight in 20 someodd fights.
Patterson and Ingo are proof of that.

It took Dempsey 60 some odd fights(Perhaps 80 if we buy the lost fights record) to get his shot at Willard.
Corbett if gone by Dr Z, had 50 bouts before his battle with Fitz.
Johnson had God knows how many before his fights with Burns.
Louis had 30 or so fights. But of couse he was gloom early though.
Tunney had 60 or so bouts before he battle Dempsey.
Compare to these guys, Marciano had a short run with a mere 42 fights.

 

You have to look at the time-frame, too

Marciano's first pro fight was in 1947, he won the title in 1952.

Ali's first pro fight was in 1960, he fought Liston in 64.

Keeping in mind the actual lengths of time between their start/title-winning dates, Marcianos' was ~5 years, while Ali's was around ~3.5 (he fought Liston early in 1964, while Marciano fought Walcott towards the end of '52).

We must not forget that Clay was an Olympic gold medalist, as well, so he was on the fast track from the get-go.

 

Well Jeffries won it on his 12th fight, Willard had 26, Louis had about 30fights so it was never essential you had a load of fights behind you, the essential thing was fighting top contenders early and getting the shot.

The impressive thing about Ali is he was taking on top contenders when he was still very young before he had anywhere nearly peaked

 

BTW stupid thread, any fighter can knock another down pretty much BUT the likelyhood of it happening isnt higher because a lesser fighter got lucky. Also why mention past prime performances?

 

I think the point is that Rocky gets a lot of flak for being droped by Walcott and Moore (partly because there is not much else to give him flak for) while in reality most other all time greats were droped by lesser fighters.

The fact that Marciano was never droped untill he fought a world champion makes his chin prety good.

 

I think his chin is very good but clearly not undestructable. The fact he gets dropped in his prime puts question marks over his defense, which actually is underrated but may still let him down against top10 ATGs.

Plus Marciano getting kd'ed in his prime and most important fights is a little different from a fighter getting clocked in a gimme fight were their mind isnt on the game or getting clocked past prime

The fact hes asking if Walcott could score a KD against Louis is also a little amusing