Could Jersey Joe Walcott and Archie Moore score knockdowns against...

Disagree. Wlacot thad Marciano floored, behind on points, and badly cut. If thsi fight took place in 2008, it might have been a cuts stoppage. Moore had Marciano down, and arm weary. Ali, Holmes, and Foreman were never in the type of trouble that Wlacott had Marciano in terms of length of distress in the fight. Sure Tyson was upset by Dougals, but Dougals on that night was great, and had the right tools and style, plus hit hard enough to do it.

Cutting depends on lots of things, bone structe, glove types, defense, fouls, punch selections, etc...I can't recall Moore cutting other guys. Wlacott I think cut Louis, but Louis had some minor issues with cuts. IMO, slicing hooks create cuts more than jab's or rights. Wlacott had the hook. Moore was more of a jab or right cross type of fighter.

I'm not sure about Walcott because he did not win a fight after he fought Marciano, and retired. Walcott was not a rich man, and if he had something left, maybe he fights on.

Moore proved he had something left post Marciano. We know this because he won significant matches post Marciano, but Moore came into the Marciano fight in poor conditon and winded himself due to older age and Marciano's pressure.

 

Yes and he woulda done a lot better against a 20 year old Marciano. I'm gonna watch that fight again to see how well he really did.

 

Mendoza wroteDisagree. Wlacot thad Marciano floored, behind on points, and badly cut. If thsi fight took place in 2008, it might have been a cuts stoppage. Moore had Marciano down, and arm weary. Ali, Holmes, and Foreman were never in the type of trouble that Wlacott had Marciano in terms of length of distress in the fight. Sure Tyson was upset by Dougals, but Dougals on that night was great, and had the right tools and style, plus hit hard enough to do it.

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Ali was hurt badly with Frazier in the 11th round,wobbled and cleary rocked and Dropped hard in the 15th. Ali was also dropped hard by the 185lb Cooper and visably shaken, Ali also was beaten pretty bad by Norton in there 1st fight (broken Jaw swelled up Bad) (they may have stopped that fight in 2008) Foreman was wobbled and dropped and hurt badly by Ron Lyle in there 5 rounds, George arm weary was Knocked out cold vs Ali in 7rds . Battered and exhusted in the latter rounds chasing and getting pop shotted and dropped and badly hurt in the 12th rd by Jimmy Young. Take a look at Foreman's face after his win over Alex Stewart (pretty bad) Check out the way Holmes was wobbled by trail horse 19-8 Mike Weaver in there fight Dropped hard and wobbling by Shavers(good thing Earnie had zero stamina) and Dropped hard by Renaldo Mr. Snipes and look at the demolition job Tyson did on him. HOW CAN YOU COMPARE A FLASH KD BY MOORE in a fight that Marciano DOMINATED from that point on (bouncing Moore up and down like a YO-YO to the beating these fighter got. How DO you compare the Walcott flash KD and the ever strong Marciano (never dicouraged) showing his Strength with a 13th RD CLEAN KO (the proof is in the puddin). And Mendoza how could you say Buster Douglas was great that night (BUSTER WAS NEVER GREAT) Buster did come in shape (Tyson was reportedly training on geisa girls) but Buster was inspired by his moms death but the key came when he did not quit(buster was kind of known as a quitter) when he was dropped and got up and fought back. I think that was a time that revealed more about Tyson than Buster and it was repeated again when a fighter took what Tyson had and came back....Evander,Williams,Lewis,McBride

 

Marciano was not cut that badly vs Walcott. Outside of round 11 perhaps, I dont see how today's ref would have stop the bout.

The cut was pretty tame when compare to say VK going a few rounds with Lewis with that cut eye.

 

I do not think the Moore and Walcott who fought Marciano could do what they did to Rocky vs Pirme verisons of Ali, Foreman, Holmes or Tyson. Those were my points. Now for some coutner points.

1 ) Ali was green vs Cooper, and moved much quicker than Marciano was. Frazier is better than anyone Marciano fought.

2 ) Foreman. Lyle hit harder than anyone Marciano fought, and Young was in his prime, which Wlacott and Moore were not. Foreman was old vs Stewart.

3 ) Holmes. Holmes chin is far more proven that Marciano's. Shavers was an all time hitter. Not sure if Rocky gets up to win if he's hit with that type of shot. Sinpes was an under rated / determined type of fighter, and stronger than the fighters Marciano fought. Holmes was too old vs Tyson to rate.

4 ) Tyson. Douglas was great on that night and had the stuff and size that Moore and Walcott did not. Moore or Walcott could not fight Tyson that way as they lacked the size and range.

 

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1)Ali was quicker than Marciano was but Patterson KO'd the same Cooper in 4 clean KO, Marciano would not have to be quick vs Cooper (it would be a quick clean KO by Rocky. Frazier was good but IMO not as good as Marciano was, and I think Walcott should not be underestimated.

2) Lyle was an overated puncher, Quarry took a prime Lyles best shots and here is a list of the much KO'd opponents that went the distance with Lyle..and look at there records and see who KO'd them..Manual Ramos( KO"D in 1 by Bonevena 2 by Frazier, 7 by Jack O"Halloran) Bob Stallings, Gregorio Peralta w10, D10(and Peralta was 38 year old) Wendell Newton SD, Lou Bailey, Stan Ward, Scott Ledoux...Lyle was overated as puncher

3)Holmes chin was more proven then Marciano,well Snipes dropped him and rocked him(Snipes was no Puncher) Shavers could hit but he had no stamina(Marciano had stamina and power) but Shavers failed to ko when he moved up in class(he could not stop Lgt HVY Vincente Rondon who was KO'd in 2 by Bob Foster) I remember Holmes getting flattened and KO"D by 5"10 Nick Wells 2 times for the Nationals and dropped and stopped by Duane Bobick for the trials. Holmes could roll with a lot of punches but I was disapointed that Larry avoided too many right hand puncher of his time,Page,Dokes,Coetzee,Thomas,Tate....and again vs Shavers I think Ali, Quarry,Stallings,Cobb,Stander,Rondon proved that they had good chins by not going down vs Shaver, Holmes proved his heart by getting up not his chin by going down.


4) you may want to call Douglas great that night but I think it was a matter of Douglas suprising Mike by coming into the fight in condition and getting up off the floor and fighting back, like I said before it proved more about Tyson then Buster because Buster was KO"D in his next fight vs Evander and Tyson failed in fights vs Lewis,Williams,McBride and Evander when they were not intimadated and fought back

 

The Charles match and the Walcott match could have been stopped. It is a ring doctor's call and in 2008 they stop them much quicker. Marciano could not see vs Walcott and looked like he might lose part of his nose vs Charels.

He wasn't badly exposed ( but he missed a ton of punches ) , but he was arm weary. You can see it on film later in the fight, and even Don Dumphy says it. Rocky was sloppy in this match.

Prime versions of Ali, Foreman, Holmes not have trouble with smaller / past their prime guys. That is the difference. I do not think the prime Ali, the prime Foreman, or the prime Holmes has the same type of trouble vs the exact same version of Rocky's opponents. They would not get floored, cut, knocked down, or be down on the cards. This above all else is how I see it. If you think prime versions of Ali, Foreman and Holmes have the same type of troubles that Rocky did, just say so. I think you agree with me that they would not, yet I see you muddying the waters on the reply.

That was the first time Vitlai was cut as an amateur or pro, and the ring doctor stopped the fight. The ring doctor let all of Marciano's fight go on.

Not so. Marciano suffered a bad cut vs Keenee Simmons and one of his books ( Undefeated I think ) says if Rocky wasn't an undefeated prospect with a manager backing him, that one is stopped on cuts.

Rocky does not agree with you. In the book I read ( Undefeated I think ) it says Marciano had back related problems well before the Moore fight, and had injections to dull the pain. I think Rocky who built his game on bending and twisting just felt his back problems would catch up to him sooner or later and called it quits. No-- Rocky was not a rich man after he retired. His manager took a big cut, and Rocky had some so-so business related investments.

Why did Moore tire so quickly? Did he have less stamina that Charles or Walcott? Sorry, but Moore looked tired in that fight. It could have been age or being at a lower weight. I do not know but he looks tired on the film, and not all of it is from hard body shots.

 

There is a lot of info in that paragraph and I agree with all of it!