Could Joe Calzaghe still be undefeated if he fought Roy Jones Jr's opponents?

not on the walnut of a planet you are on.

clearly they are saying that Johnson HAS A CHANCE. This is quite true, a decent fighter has a chance of beating a pretty good fighter when hes naturally heavier. Bold in case you still dont get it.

 

Popkins, when you speak to just about everyone like this, it's no surprise that you're considered a dickhead by just about everyone on here

Trinidad was in his prime as a WW! That's two divisions below MW! After losing to Hopkins he then got dominated by Winky Wright, and Roy Jones, and did nothing!

Trinidad was not in his prime when he fought Hopkins. He was in his prime when he fought ODLH at WW!

Don't forget, when Calzaghe beat Hopkins, Bernard was on his best run beating Tarver, Wright then Pavlik. So why doesn't he get similar credit? He also went on to win more titles after losing to Calzaghe, unlike Trinidad.

I said he never beat a prime HOF class fighter, which he hasn't.

I said on your 'earth shattering achievement' argument, does that make Buster Douglas an ATG?

You said greatness has to be achieved in the ring in another thread. Well, look at the opposition Hopkins was defending those titles against. He reigned over possibly the worst MW era in history!

You listed criteria, that you're now going against.

And to think you said my arguments were weak

Once again, shooting down your own criteria. Calzaghe also went undefeated for a decade as a champion and won all four world titles and the ring magazine, yes there were poor opposition, but he also beat some very good opponents. That makes a special fighter.

It was an 'earth shattering achievement'

By your own admission, that makes him 'special'.

Now you're having problems with comprehension atsch

I said Hopkins has never beaten a prime HOF class fighter, which is true.

You listed some criteria, which you then contradicted and went back on in your following post

I don't really care, I simply saw you list the criteria of for you to consider a fighter special, they must have

1. defeated a prime HOF class fighter
2. Recorded an 'earth shattering achievement'

When you then contradicted in your next post

Onto your next point, it was Hopkins that pulled out and priced himself out a fight with Calzaghe in 2002.

Me riled up?

Look at the essay you just wrote in response to a few lines I wrote :nut

I didn't attack you at all, have you never had any sort of civil debate with anyone? I never insulted you personally until you started saying things like '****-weak argument, delusional boxrec fanboy'. You just turned hostile out of nowhere :huh

You listed a set of criteria, and I pointed out how they were flawed

You have already altered it in your next post

I give plenty of credit to talented fighters, and even though I insulted the MW division Hopkins reigned over (yes it was poor), I don't criticise the fighter himself. He beat the names in his division (Holmes, Eastman, Joppy, Trinidad, Echols, ODLH), as Calzaghe did in his division (Eubank, Reid, Mitchell, Brewer, Lacy, Kessler). Calzaghe was unfortunate in that Ottke ducked him like the plague.

Of all those wins listed, Calzaghe's win over Kessler is the best. Calzaghe beat one of the top SMW's of the last decade in their prime. Unlike Hopkins, his best win doesn't come over fighters who's accomplishments came in the lower weights, he beat Kessler at his best weight. I'm not insulting Bernard, but those are facts.

Don't get me wrong, Hopkins is indeed a special fighter, so is Calzaghe

I like to give credit where it's due, and both get a lot of credit from me, I have huge respect for both

atsch

This is pretty sad

 

yes i agree its wrong to say Calzaghe wasnt special in some ways. He had the engine of a champ marathon runner, which is an outstanding and special attribute however you want to spin it. He had an undisputed amazing engine, and would clearly have had medal success as an olympic middle distance track athlete for instance, something Bernard probably couldnt manage.

He had special attributes, just like hopkins had his special skill level and special ringcraft. Hopkins had more attributes at that level, but that dont take away what Joe had.

 

Your reply was a lot weaker than I anticipated. I was quite up for a protracted debate, but you really haven't done anything there to justify me spending time on it. You have chopped off the end of some of my sentences, cherrypicked certain lines and so on in a desperate attempt to claw back some ground, but it all looks very weak indeed.

In brief,

- Felix Trinidad was most certainly still a prime fighter in 2001. He was only 28. His win over Joppy at 160 in his previous fight to Hopkins was one of the most devastating and impressive of his entire career. He did not look a markedly lesser fighter in either of his two following fights, blowing out Cherifi and Mayorga with ease, he only got dominated again when he met the other great defensive stylist of the era. You don't know much about Tito if you are so certain his prime was as a ww. Most Tito fans I know consider him to have been more comfortable and effective at 154, much like most Hearns fans would say the same about Tommy

- I have contradicted nothing really. I said a special fighter has beaten a prime HOF class fighter or achieved something earth-shattering (or both). I think Mayweather is a special fighter primarily (but not solely) because he is (by my reckoning) the p4p#1 14 years after he won a world title. Can you tell me any other fighter from history who has done likewise? It'd be a very short list. This is a special achievement, and so meets my criteria, it's not on a par with the achievements of Benitez or Hopkins, but it's of that nature. If you add this to his special skillset and best wins, I'd say he merits the term 'special'. For me, his resume is superior to Joe's, his skills are superior to Joe's, his longevity is superior to Joe's, so I wouldn't get too upset that he is special in my own reckoning, whereas Joe ain't

- My criteria is still in effect, and I'm still comfortable with it. I do not consider Joe Calzaghe a special fighter, I think he's a very good one, but he hasn't done anything which sets him apart as 'special', no siree. And I certainly believe that saying anyone who thinks so is guilty of "blind hatred" is being supremely ridiculous




By the way, you seem to have conveniently glossed over the parts in my previous post where I explain to you that:


A - you were completely wrong about naming Hopkins as a fighter who did not fulfill my criteria, because obviously he has achieved something which merits the title "earth-shattering" (not that we should get too attached to that phrase, it would probably make more sense to refer to the achievement that makes a fighter special as a "special" achievement), in that he is currently the world record holder for the oldest fighter ever to win a major world boxing title, and did so as a lightheavyweight when common wisdom suggests it would always be easier for a heavyweight to win a major title at an advanced age.

Do you now accept you were wrong to name Hopkins, now that I have corrected you (and you attempted to ignore and gloss over the correction?) :think


B - you told me I was wrong for stating that a Johnson vs Calzaghe fight would occur in a phone booth, when in reality I did not say that, and it was in fact you who was dead wrong, and also not a very good reader.

Do you now accept you made a complete hash of trying to be smart and correct me on that point? :think

 

The really sad thing is your inability to give Calzaghe his due as a great fighter because you don`t like him.

Nobody is saying he`s as special a fighter as Morales or Benitez but he was the best British fighter of his generation (don`t waste your time with the Lennox Lewis dick sucking please, I don`t have the time, he`s overrated to **** IMO) & he beat a lot of good fighters, one great one in Hopkins & you can save your finger energy telling me how geriatric Hopkins was at that stage (or the fact you scored it to Hopkins by 1 point) before you start that nonsense because he completely whitewashed Pavlik in his very next fight.... we all know it wasn`t the Hopkins that schooled Trinidad but he was still a very good p4p elite fighter.

:good

 

Popkins is zie poster who is synonymous vith epic failures. Zis deepthroater zelf pwned hiself zat badly on zie MMA forum zat he had to leave the forum for good :rofl :rofl

 

Vie all know that zie glass jawed Felix Trinidad vas knocked down 7 times as zie velterveight and vas schooled like zie amateur by vinky wright :rofl

 

err. NO!!! no no no.

Lennox >>>> Calzaghe. **** me, minor title holder who faces fringe contenders is always less than guy who unifies and faces the best with those titles. Lennox does get overrated too, but he is in a different league, he belongs with the Bhops.

Willing to agree that Calzaghe has special qualities but dont start claiming stupidities.Lennox had more special attributes than Joe anyway.

Calzaghe is more on par with Ricky Hatton, but an alternative universe version slightly younger Ricky Hatton who waited till Pacquiao was 40 and Mayweather was 43 before facing them and scraping decisions one he knew they were lungshot.

 

There are a lot of posters here who I enjoy a decent debate with, you're not one of them.

Cool, then why bother responding when you can do us both a favour and **** off?


In brief,

No he wasn't, he was in his prime in the lower weight divisions He did nothing after Hopkins because he was past his best!

Then why do you write off Calzaghe's win over Hopkins due to his age? He turned in one of the most devastating performances of his career directly after losing to Joe?

well yes you did

Because you consider Mayweather special (which of course he is) even though he hasn't fulfilled either of your 'criteria'.

 

Superb post Professor :happy

Popkins is making himself look silly again, please remind us of what happened on the MMA forum? I'm sure Popkins' adoring fans and friends would love to hear atsch

 

Lewis is overrated to **** pal, Calzaghe & even Naseem Hamed were better fighters... Lewis is on par with Hatton, who I do rate actually, I rate Lewis & Hatton but one gets a raw deal for being knocked out by the 2 best p4pers in the sport & one gets a free pass for likewise vs B level fighters in McCall & Rahman, so **** if he avenged the losses, he still lost badly in & around his prime. Calzaghe was the greatest British fighter of the past 20 years, it is what it is.

 

you are delusional, sorry, on this issue.

Lewis took on the best and won, and revenged his few losses comprehensively. Calzaghe fought sub-Rahmans for stretches of years, and to his credit never lost to anyone of them, but this HAS to be a lesser feat than beating greats, goods and maybes that Lewis did regularly. The reason Calzaghe lasted so long is in par to him facing off with sub-Rahmans, and Lewis could have happily did the same, but thats not his style.

Not even beginning to figure in that Lewis's major league titles **** on the unheard of till the 21st century wbo title of zaghes.

Cal is better compared to the Klitschos who chainsmoked on **** opponents for years too, although he is certianly better than either of them because he had the xtra gear to not lose by staying motivated and staying fit and smart for each consecutive fight against chains of crapsters.

People rate Lewis often in the top 3 or 4 HWs ever in its rich 100+ yar history, and theres evidence to support that. Calzaghe only gets into the top 3 SMWs becasue there have only been a handful that are above pretty good so far that stayed at SMW for a decent amount of time in the short history of SMWs (so thats Jones, Calzaghe, Toney, Eubank and a few others). Wont be long before he gets puched out of the top three, if we get a new Ward coming into the division every decade.

 

I think Calzaghe was a very good fighter indeed, have no idea why that offends so many people.

In my honest opinion as a fan of boxing, his career does not justify calling him special or great though.

He was a very good fighter of his era, as was Winky Wright, Felix Trinidad and Shane Mosley.

I don't consider any of them special fighters, but they were all very good indeed.

As I said, have absolutely no idea why this reasonable and fully justifiable opinion provokes such fury. :good

 

Trolls unite! :happy

 

Comedy gold, ESB style...