Could Leonard beat a prime Hagler?

I love Marvin Hagler and felt that he was a true great, but I think his prime abilities have reached mythical proportions here... He drew with Vito Antufirmo in their first fight, won a highly contested decision over an aged Duran who was rising in weight, and was decked by Juan Roldan ( though some felt it was a slip. ) In Leonard's prime he was facing youthful version of Duran, Hearns and Benitez, and beat them all convincingly, ( not forgetting about the first loss to Duran. )

Now, could he have beaten Leonard when both at their absolute peaks? I think its a strong possibility, but some are dismissing Ray's chances a bit too quickley in my opinion.

 

I agree, its beyond ridiculous.

 

Please stop, your killing me here

 

No. Why would he say that ?
The point is, it was the biggest fight out there, he talked about it when he "retired", he invited team Hagler there for what reason ? I think he did it to needle them, so do many who were there.
Leonard loved big challenges, and has always said "I always wanted to beat Hagler". However, in '82 he walked away from a huge opportunity. In '86 he says "I can beat this guy now!"

Well, he'd beaten everyone relevant, apart from Hagler. He needed big challenges to motivate him. The Kevin Howard fight confirmed that.

By the same token, it's "common sense" that he can't beat Hagler in 1987 either then. It's "common sense" that he's talking **** in '86 when he sees Hagler-Mugabi and decides he can beat Hagler.

I'm not saying he knew he'd get his chance against Hagler. I mean, he didn't know that someone else wouldn't beat him first. He didn't know for sure that Hagler would slip before he (Leonard) is really too old to do anything about it.
But he was hoping, and keeping his eyes open for it.

Whether he knew he was coming back or not, he certainly didn't fancy fighting Hagler in '83.

I'm NOT saying he cherry-picked. It's almost the opposite. He went after the guys who were the biggest challenges, certainly in the case of Hagler. It's telling that he didn't go after a prime Hagler though.

Because he saw Hagler had slowed down, and believed himself still fit and young enough to pull off a hit-and-run act on him.
OK, you want to question "why would Leonard believe that ?". But he did, and he was right. And he pinpoints '86 specifically as believing it.
Personally, the question for me is "did he believe the same thing in '82 or '83 ?" .... and, to me, all evidence suggests not.

No. Do you ?

Well, Leonard was the arch-retiree.
They weren't permanent retirements.
He started it in 1976, saying he was retired from boxing, and would never turn pro.

 

Bill,,,,,,,,stick to the Deli Counter,,,,,,,,,you're no butcher,,,,,,,,,,

Davey Moore, would have walked through Ray Leonard,,,,,,

Davey was no Bruce Finch or Davey 'Boy' Green.
Its styles,,,,,,Moore in 7 Rounds.

 

Unforgiven,

If you insist that Leonard ducked Hagler in 1983, and that he genuinely felt that his chances against him were better in 1987, despite years of inactivity, an injury, drug use, a crap performance against Kevin Howard and the challenge of jumping weight, then fine.. If you want to believe that Hagler would have beaten him prime for prime, fine.. If you choose to surmise that Hagler was further gone than Leonard in 1987, then you can take that route as well..I have given my best effort to debate the issue and have used facts to support my argument, doing my best to avoid speculation or personal bias.. The only way for me to proceed at this point, would be to make up things that never happened, and I don't feel its worth my time to do so...

Have a great day.

 

We both know you dont believe a word of this

 

Leonard didnt make Hagler fight orthodox. That was his own decision that ultimately backfired. Not leonards fault.

 

Yes,,,,,the 82'/83'/84',,,,,Davey Moore

His bout with Gary Guiden and Wilfred Benetiz convinced me, his style would have been 'big' trouble for Ray Leonard.

Fast hands, right hand power and a young hungry fighter, properly motivated.

Leonard would have eaten several right hand bombs.

Kevin Howard did show the way to do it.

 

I haven't made up anything that didn't happen, so I'm not sure why you feel you would need to do so.
I base my opinion on things that Leonard said and did.
His "retirement" in 1982 did happen.
His come back announcement a year later did happen.
His fighting after the eye surgery did happen.
His "revelation" that he could beat Hagler in '86 did happen.
His decision win over Hagler did happen.

I never said anything about Leonard "ducking" Hagler either. How can the welterweight champion duck the middleweight champion ? It would be absurd for me to suggest that.

I simply said he would have fought him in 1983 if he felt he could beat him then. Just as he did fight him in '87 when he felt he could beat him. He came back amid fears over his eye and after all that inactivity and did beat him.

You only have to look at what Leonard himself said, the revelation on watching the Mugabi fight that he could beat him. You don't need to act like I'm the one being illogical, I'm just going on what Leonard said and did at that time. You can go tell him he's crazy for thinking his chances improved '83 to '87, but since he actually did win a decision over Hagler you won't have much to argue with.

 

I suppose there are people who feel that Leonard waited until 1997, and the age of 40 to face Hector camacho on the basis that he felt Hector had "deteriorated" and that it was his chance to beat him..

 

The fact that Leonard DEFEATED Hagler says nothing about his feelings on the matter neither in 1983, nor 1987, which you have speculatively based your argument on for several pages now.. That's it.... You are playing the role of a mind reader by assuming what the man felt, while ignoring a fair number of facts... Do you think that his retiring from a torn retina injury was a farce? Do you really feel that Hagler looked worse in 1986 against Mugabi then he did in 1983 against a faded Duran? Do you really think that Leonard's return to the ring in 1984 to face Kevin Howard meant that his injury a year earlier was irrelevant to the reason he retired? Sure, he took a year off to mend the injury, then came back to see what he had left, and ended up looking like **** against a mediocrity, so disappeared for another 3 years... To most people, this would not be the behavior of a man who was gearing up to beat an all time great, who by the way was still a powerful force and heavily favored to beat him in 1987... Imediately following the Hagler fight, he looked extremely vulnerable against Lalonde and an aged Hearns, but somehow despite his showing signs of deterioration both before and after the Hagler fight, he was somehow still close enough to prime to have an advantage over Marvin...By this very same logic that you have fronted, Leonard must have waited it out until 1997 to beat Hector Camacho on the basis that he thought he was ripe for the picking......

In any case, even if Leonard HAD felt that the Mugabi fight was a sign that Hagler was vulnerable, it doesnt' address nor calculate the rate at which Leonard himself had diminished over the years, nor what would have happened had they met at an earlier date...

 

I'd pick Hagler to win, but if they fought 10 times Leonard would've surely won a few times. Both were so great !

 

His draw with Antuofermo was one of the more controversial decisions of that era, and for good reason. I am one of the people who feel the Roldan incident was a slip.

In his prime, Hagler was one of the most rounded fighters of all time. Obviously Leonard would be a live underdog, but one of the main reasons that I think Hagler could beat Leonard prime vs prime is because his legs would be fresher and his handspeed/reflexes would allow him to counter Leonard's flurries even more effectively.