Could Leonard beat a prime Hagler?

I'm with PP here. Leonard was very deliberately meeting Kalule and it had **** all to do with Kalule's skills or whatever else, just a clear case of a fighter with superior offensive talent walking through a guy who couldn't bang or take a shot to anywhere near the same level. He's not going to be fighting somebody who can do both those things to the highest level the same way for obvious reasons.

Leonard was blatantly frontrunning vs. Hagler and his game dropped off sharply after the first few rounds and ended up getting caught on the ropes/dragged into exchanges on the inside. (In fact it's quite embarassing to me how easily Hagler was getting handled in the opening rounds. Picture that over the long haul in a primes match-up.)

I also think Leonard's durability gets under-rated here - for me one of the best ever in that regard. He has the beard to see out any rough patches and isn't exactly mentally soft. And don't forget that Hagler was a guy who could get tired as well.

 

The Ayub Kalule fight cannot be used as a basis point.

Other than the fact, that he was left-handed (also Larry Bonds),
there were no similarities in styles with Marvin Hagler.

As a mattter of fact, the earlier Marvin Hagler was more of a boxer-puncher,
while the later Marvin Hagler was more aggressive.

 

Yes just wave the magic wand & shift tactics to what? Survival mode? Do as he did against Duran in New Orleans & run around the ring, Throwing in a few "Walk aways" into the mix for effect!! I say you are doing a massive disservice to Hagler here & the Kalule analogie is more than apt in regards to what Leonards going to be on the recieving end of in the way of power & more importently from a man who has just as much speed of delivery as Leonard would have at the weight + also having the spring of a gazzele in his legs too more than off-set anything Leonard can hope for in the way of movement & leverage.

Marvin would approuch this fight in his normal counterpunching attritional box/fighter mode as was his formula for success in those years. You say Leonard would adapt!! To what!! It's farcical to even suggest that Leonard could employ those tactics he used against a slow plodding one dimensional Duran in New Orleans against Hagler. He's got too land punches & to do that he's got too get close to a natually minded counterpuncher.

Leonard has to land punches & plenty of them & somehow hope that he can escape retaliation & to land them he'll have to plant himself as he's not going to do much damage by poncing & posing is he. He's got to pray that he can cut Hagler & to do that he'd best jump into Hagler unload & then clinch so as to avoid the certain stinging debilitating inevitable counters that Hagler employed when an opponant pulled back from him.

I think Leonard would be quite succesfull the early part of the fight & if his stratergy was to bank rounds early so taking it too Hagler is the only way he's going to achieve this when he's relatively still fresh. But what you are implying is that he'll somehow miraculesly avoid getting hit by the stronger & IMO faster man at the weight.

You say Leonard will adapt!!! If Leonards to win he's going to have to fight the way he's always fought & that is too overpower the bigger man & slug it out & fighting on the retreat is not Leonards forte & never has been. Show me a Leonard fight other than New Orleans where this is the case. He can't do it & never had too, it's alien to him & once haglers on his tail he's going to be well & truly ****ed as leonards best defence has always been his offence.

Leonard would be best if he took ring centre from the 1st bell much as he did against Benitez & turn this into a close quarter's chess match. But the massive problem that he will face is the gazzelle like spring in Haglers legs in being able to effortlessly glide in & out while constanly throwing out the jab. I just can't see what Leonard has got in his arsenal to somehow nuetralise Haglers defensive & counter offensive capabilities. He definetly has'nt the much vaunted so called speed at Middleweight & he'l not have the defence or power & more importently STAMINA when in against a man who is more powerful & just as fast as he is & with a better defence & counter offensive skill.

Leonards got to impose his will from the 1st ring a ding & that being Leonards phyci would be the way he'd go for it. He's got absolutely nothing else to offer & all this adaption/speed nonsense is just that, NONSENSE!! Leonards in with a bigger man who has all the nessasary defensive & offensive skills & most importently SPEED to overcome anything that Leonard brings into the ring.

Incredible that people fall back on this delusion that all leonards got to do is pull a switch & adapt one size fits all/oh that ai'nt working so i'll try this & i'll get away with it because i'am SRL, absolute rubbish & a disgracefull assesment in the deluded belief that Hagler would be complient.

 

Just to be very clear. I pick Hagler in a prime vs prime ('82-83) fight with Leonard in a close fight. I just don't think it's a walkover and I certainly don't think Leonard attempts to walk Hagler down like he did Kalule or Larry Bonds. For you to suggest that, YOU are doing a disservice to Hagler. Hagler would demand much more respect in the ring. I don't need to wave a magic wand for Leonard to adapt. He fought a chess match with the master (Benitez) and won. He brawled with Duran. Did he not adapt from Montreal to New Orleans. He stalked Tommy Hearns. He picked Hagler's pocket in '87 (whether you agree with the decision or not). Of course he could adapt. He's one of the most versatile fighters ever. He stalked lesser opponents because he could and often got sloppy (Finch, Bonds, Kalule) to name a few. He's not fighting Hagler like he fought Kalule, no way. And just to be preemptive about it. This isn't fanboy **** talking. And Leonard isn't getting over on the delusional lot of us "fanboys". He was a great fighter. It's plain to see by watching him. Anyone who suggests otherwise is clouded by hatred. To suggest otherwise, and to suggest he couldn't adapt his strategy denies what he did on film in his 5 biggest fights against great fighters. Walking down ****ing Larry Bonds and Ayub Kalule has nothing to do with the great Marvin Hagler. There may be 2 or 3 Middleweights in history who would walk Hagler down and Leonard ain't one of them.

 

At WW Leonard was an animal in terms of strength and durability, which makes it even more remarkable that Duran could manhandle him like that. But it's hard to know exactly how he would have carried that up to MW had he moved there in his prime. He did carry it quite well past his prime, though

 

We have answers

[ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q3wA6__QgUA[/ame]

 

But that was past his prime.

As I said, we know how he carried it quite well when past his prime. We can only surmise that he would have carried it better in his prime, but not by how much.

 

Just to be very clear I know that Leonard is a magnificent champion & an all time great & i'am not putting him down in any form or context. But as per usual there's far to much hair splitting on here again. I've made it more than clear that when i use the kalule analogie it's refernce to what i think as to how Leonards speed & stamina will be put to the test against Hagler & only in that context & **** all to do with walking down Kalule or Bonds.

I don't & never will buy into this RESPECT thing, Leonard would do what he thought appropreate & again when i say Adapt!!! It's obviously in context to Hagler & all to frequently you'll agree that far to many on here either can't read/comprehend or deliberatly quote out of context. All i've said & asked is meaning "HOW" will Leonard adapt HOW can he when all the Hagler intangibles are taken into account win this fight.

LORA is the only poster yet who IMO has put the possible scenerio together for you all to debate & i've put mine & i'am still of the mind that Hagler is just not getting his due & proper respect on here & Leonard has had far too much delussional ink on this subject, not from you as i know you're not a fanboy & i respect your opinion as to how this fight pans out & you may be right & i may be wrong, but i've just tried to give what i think is an honest assesment of Leonards chances & how i'd think he'd best fight Hagler which i know goes against the grain as per usual but i really do believe that leonard is best served taking it to Hagler & if i could find another avenue for Leonard i would. Too few on here have even tried to give a stratergy for leonard other than using the usual bug out cliches.

 

Ray Leonard's greatest attribute, his versatility.
He could adapt several different styles, to dictate a fight.

Of course, being talented, helps.
But, if he did get hurt versus a Top-Notch Marvin Hagler, would he have the
skills to avoid getting knocked-out.
Probably,,,,,,,,

 

OK, fair enough. Now this **** is getting interesting for me. Other than Sal Sanchez, I watch more Hagler than anybody else. Love to watch the guy fight. But there are a few fights in his career which are perplexing. Antuofermo, Duran, Leonard. While not shot, I don't think that was prime Hagler in '87. But '83 Duran was the tail end of his prime IMO. I'm sure you've analized this many times but I don't have time to review posts right now. What happened? Too much respect? Hagler was concerned about getting cut or thumbed (recent memories of Davey Moore)? His corner crapped the bed (as they certainly did against Leonard)? Duran was less mobile than Leonard at this weight. Couldn't you foresee Leonard getting in Hagler's head similarly? I agree with you completely that a prime Hagler had the skills that you weren't going to beat him with mirrors. But why didn't he leave any questions against Vito? What happened with Duran? I certainly think Leonard could get in Hagler's head and make this a close fight. I really think he fights a similar fight to '87. I'm assuming 3 extra rounds help Marv more than Leonard. I'd hope he wouldn't implement the idiotic strategy of coming out orthodox for 4 rounds. With those two things in his favor, I believe he edges it, but it's a tough fight.

 

Which opponent did Marvin face in his prime that's most similar to Leonard? In terms of defensive skill Duran seems a pretty good shout. Did prime Hagler face any other opponent that's comparable to Leonard in terms of defense and counter-punching?

 

I could probably live with this analysis too.. At least its a hell of a lot better than the usual tired old rhetoric of " Leonard was just sitting around on his ass for 5 years waiting for him to fall apart at the seams, and was uneffected by time or inactivity, while Marvin turned into a geriatic cripple."

For the record, I don't have a problem with those who pick Hagler to beat Leonard in a prime for prime match up.. But, in my mind it would always be a close fight, and Hagler winning would never be a given, despite the natural advantage of being set in the heavier weight class.

 

Maybe somewhat similar.

Johnny Baldwin (southpaw)
Doug Demmings
Reggie Ford (as an amateur beat Marvin Hagler @ 156 lbs.)

 

This is the nightmare of hindsight that none of us in all honesty can avoid. I've tried to view this from a romantic clean slate perspective & it's obvious that the antuo/duran & leonard 87 are going to throw up some issues here as to the phychi of Hagler but each one has it's own unique slant to it. I think in 81/82 hagler was really on a roll & he finally believed in himself that he was a champion but not universally acclaimed or in the superstar bracket as Leonard was.

So i've given Hagler a clean bill of mental health for this fight with Leonard as in being the underdog which seemed to suite Haglers mentality, i doubt Leonard would have got into Haglers head to the degree he did in 87 when roles where reversed as Marvin was'nt as mentally vulnerable then too the mental ambush & the risk of losing everything he'd craves as in 81/82 as i said still not accorded the ranking of superstar so i think the pressure was more on leonard to perform although leanard would obviously have tried some form of phyc warfare but i don't recken it'd have had that much affect on Hagler then who knew that beating leonard got him a seat at the table atop Boxings Mt Olympus.

Duran was his real big superfight & in effect he was upstaged & in reality 2nd billing although big banker favorite to win. When i heard that Duran was fighting hagler, i thought oh ****!!! I hope Duran survives intact!! no way or any of us expect that fight to pan out the way it did. Without doubt Haglers corner where clueless as to how to counter durans statergy.

I've just focused on Haglers boxing ability here against leonard but it goes without saying that he may well have froze up (In hindsite) when the 1st bell went against leonard. But just knowing the Leonard phyci back then & the expectaions on him as being a big favorite to beat Hagler this has a bearing on how i see leonard fighting Hagler as he's got it all to lose & hagler all to gain & a compleate mental reversal of 87.

I'am going by the Fully Obel/Sibbo fights with regard to Marvins boxing & Leonards fight with Kalule with regard to what i saw as a slight slowing & stamina issue for a fight over 15 with Marvin. But thats in a perfect world & it goes without saying that the hagler of the Antuo & Duran fights leave you with some unexplainable cunumdrums to figue out. It's as tough a fight as Marvin wants to make it in 82 & again with hindsight it could have got tough for him.

But my call is all about the phyci of the Leonard of the day who as we well know was one of the meanest toughest nastiest *******s about regardless of the cute wink & smile for the camera. He was thee main man & thats why i see him making the mistake of wanting to dominate & take hagler out of there. He was the king & hagler the potential usurper of his crown. So many mental intangibles, hence i've tried to stick just to the boxing skills of both protaginists at the weight, but of course thats in a clear & perfect world.

But the Vito enigma would have told leonard that he mentally could have taken the fight to hagler with some confidence & in a P4P/H2H that would win him it, but i just can't see Leonard being able to withstand the the accumilation of punches he'd definetly be taking over 15 rounds. But again where do we place Duran in all of this if we employ hidsight, he gave Hagler & his corner fits & if that fight is anything to go by then you'd think if Leonard used that close in stratagy then you'd think it'd be a Leonard win. But the amazing thing about Duran was his fitness & stamina even at 32 & for me it's something Leonard would maybe have a problem with + he would'nt fight on the counter just to stay in there as Duran did for the pay day.....Perplexing INDEED.

 

Did either fighter ever show a little 'dog' in their make-up.

And, did either fighter ever have to carry another fighter, to make it look good.

I'm wondering.