Could Marciani carry Holmes jock strap? Holmes vs Marciano

I would honestly never have expected somebody with your knowledge of boxing history, to question that a swarmer has certain stylistic advantages over a classic boxer.

That is fairly basic stuff.

 

I think people too often parrot what they have heard.Like tall guys must fight at distance ,shorter reach guys must get close to have a chance.I've seen it stood on its head too many times to be dogmatic about it.

 

Hi fellas, in my opinion it depends which swarmer and which boxer as far as stylistic advantages go but I will say that if the boxer doesnt have much punching power then the swarmer aka the guy who will take two to land one usually troubles the boxer. Especially if the swarmer has good hand and foot speed.

Then again as McVey said Ali did win two outta three against Frazier, Leonard did win two outta three against Duran, Robinson gave LaMotta diabetes, Douglas, Holyfield and Lewis did beat Tyson. Tillis gave Mike a great fight. Jofre smashed Saldivar, Mike Spinks defeated Qawi etc, etc, etc.

Boxer types usually prefer slow stalkers but it isnt writ in stone.

As far as stylistic advantages in a Marciano vs Holmes fight go, I believe Holmes has most of them.

Rocky NEVER faced a 6 ft 3 guy who weighed around 212 and a half pounds ( Larrys weight vs Cooney ) who had the jab, the hand speed, the overall conditioning or the punching power that Larry Holmes had.

There is an absolutely massive difference between the 37 year old 190 pounds Walcott, the pretty much shot ( and a fair bit smaller than Holmes ) Joe Louis and the middle aged Ezzard Charles who Walcott had already put to sleep and who had been a pro for 14 years to say the unbeaten, prime Larry Holmes who fought Cooney.

Holmes on the other hand fought a guy like Shavers twice. Ernie punched a lot harder than the Rock in my opinion and was a swarming, attacking style fighter. Shavers was a considerably bigger guy than Marciano.

Even though Ernie was an old man I would rate his speed of foot and hand above Rocky's. Unlike his chin, stamina or will to win

Cheers All

 

I am not being dogmatic about it, I am just asking you to acknowledge that Marciano could be seen as having a stylistic advantage.

 

The thing I find strange here is how selective people are in their logic. Many of the people that count out Marciano's chances against 70s heavyweights like Foreman and Ali seem to feel that these same heavyweights can beat the bigger, stronger heavyweights of later eras like Joshua and Klitschko. Why on earth would the much smaller Ali be given a chance against skilled super heavyweights like Wlad and Joshua? He would be at a bigger size disadvantage than Marciano is against him and wouldn't have the power to compensate.

 

What I would take away from some of these fights, is that the boxers were qualitatively superior to the swarmers (comparing the rest of their records), and that the swarmers were over performing against them.

 

Sure Marciano could carry it, it might be a little lose around the waist.

If Marciano fought the same men Holmes did to get to 48-0, I think he's about 46-2.

Holmes was bitter about losing to Spinks, and he did in the first fight. He was however robbed in the re-match.

Had they fought in their primes, I pick Holmes via decision or late round TKO, with Rocky doing a bit better than say Cooney did. After the fight. Larry would say anything but Rocky was a tough son of a gun to beat.

 

Also, I find this fixation on the age of Marcianos opponents to be perplexing. Lennox Lewis was 36 in the rematch with Hasim Rahman. Did he look shot in that fight? What signs of deterioration did he show relative to his younger days?

Vitali Klitschko was 37-38 in 2008-2009. Did he look like he was past it when he was thrashing Samuel Peter?

 

Hi mate, every fighter is a separate case as far as when they start to deteriorate. In the main it depends on how many beatings and or wars the fighter has been in. There is a reason Marciano retired aged 32. He had been in some absolute wars and I believe he wasn't very impressed with his own showing against Moore. He had also only actually had 7 fights at the highest level, bugger all compared to guys like Louis, Ali, Holmes, Holyfield and Lewis.

Compare Ezzard Charles to Lennox Lewis.

Lewis at 36 had only been in one really hard, war type fight, the Mercer fight. Lennox had fought 42 times in 12 years up to the Rahman rematch but in the ten years between when he beat Ruddock up to the Rahman fight big Lennie had 23 fights.

Ezzard Charles had 59 fights in eight years post ww2, all at a very high level. Then add the fact he had 37 pro fights prior to WW2 breaking out and you realise why he didnt age as well as Vitali or Lennox. Prior to facing Marciano Ezzard had also lost 2 of his previous 4 fights so his form was pretty ordinary.

Add modern " sports science " to the mix and you start to understand why modern fighters ago so much better.

 

Hi mate, Ali and Holmes actually have 80 inch reaches unlike Rocky who had the shortest reach of any Heavyweight champion at 69 inches. Foreman had a 78 inch reach. Holmes, Foreman and Ali are approximately two inches shorter than Lewis and three inches shorter than Wladimir. Ali and Holmes are much quicker than Lennox and AJ and quicker than Wladimir.

Marciano on the other hand was a lot slower than Ali and Holmes and no faster than Foreman.

Speaking of light hitters, Ali had a record of 31-0 with 25 stoppage wins when he faced Frazier in the FOTC. Not bad for a " non puncher ".

I could argue Ali was a more proven puncher than Marciano at the highest level against big guys as Ali actually stopped Liston, Foreman, Frazier and Lyle quicker than Rocky stopped Walcott or Charles in the first fights. Rocky never fought any good, big men.

A smaller fighter with great boxing skills and good defence has a much better chance of doing well against a larger opponent than someone who fights like Marciano. Anyone with any understanding of boxing understands that fact.

Chris Byrd managed to defeat one of the Klitschkos, Roy Jones defeated Ruiz. Jimmy Young defeated Foreman. All examples of a smaller guy outboxing a larger one.

Name one Rocky Marciano style fighter who beat a world class fighter who outweighed him by 20 pounds or more.

Cheers.

 

Reading this kind of stuff its not surprising at all that Marciano gets so much backlash. So many misconceptions and outright false beliefs about his career.

 

Okay I can't take anymore of this bs and I'm not surprised @Seamus liked this far fetched post.

First off, Ali didn't stop Liston because of punching power. Liston retired in his corner the first time because of a shoulder injury. The second fight is probably the most controversial title fight in all of boxing history regardless of weight class. Liston could have very well thrown that fight.

Foreman was gassed plain and simple. It's well known that he had stamina issues back then and on top of that he was fighting in hot African heat.

Frazier was very past prime and about 10 lbs above his prime fighting weight when his trainer stopped the fight after the 14th round because his right eye was swollen shut and the left had a cataract. NOT because of punching power.

Ali couldn't even knock Lyle down. He just overwhelmed him with volume. Do you think if Marciano landed those punches that Lyle would still have been standing? Not a chance.

 

None of the guys Ali beat were big by today's standards. Foreman weighed 220 against Ali, that's roughly 30 pounds less than Joshua and far less than Wladimir, Lennox, etc. None of them were close to as big as the giants of today.

 

This thread is the perfect example of the modernist’s pack mentality.

 

I'm a big fan of Marciano and think that Holmes is often unappreciated being wedged between the Ali/Foreman/Frazier and Tyson era.

In a head to head match up, I'd say the fight would pan out like Walcott vs Marciano I. However, with that beard on Holmes, he would probably survive the onslaught and get a decision win and never fight Marciano again.

The jockstrap comment was in the heat of the moment. They are both great HW champions in a similar class.