Could Marciani carry Holmes jock strap? Holmes vs Marciano

Hi DWop, despite what you said Ali-Clay did stop all the fighters I named. All the rest is semantics. Name one world class fighter who weighed 210 pounds plus that Rocky stopped.

I apologise for getting Rocky's age at retirement wrong. He was 32 not 28.

To be honest I never got the whole " what a hard puncher " Marciano was as even a fat light heavyweight like Don C ockell went nine rounds with Rocky and was still on his feet when the fight was stopped.

Ancient Archie who was also a light heavyweight also managed to go nine rounds with the Rock.

Rocky was more a " wear you down with attrition " type guy to me than a stone cold kayo merchant.

Yes he did kayo dropped Walcott with one right hand. So what. Jersey Joe wasnt exactly hard to kayo if you examine his record. Walcott was a very cagey fighter but he was no Jake LaMotta in the chin department.

Compared to fighters like Tyson, Foreman, Liston and Louis Rocky was a mediocre puncher in my opinion.

If you believe a face first, easily cut, slow of hand and feet type fighter who weighed around 185 pounds and who never proved himself against any live, good, big heavys could beat a fighter like Holmes then we shall just have to disagree.

Cheers.

 

Foreman was trained down to 220 by Moore and Saddler so he could go 15 rounds. A mistake in my opinion. His best fighting weight was more round the 226 mark s a young bloke ( he weighed that against Lyle ).

If George was using todays " magic sports medicine " as a young fighter he would have weighed around 240 - 245. Like a taller Ike Ibeabuchi.

Lennox Lewis actually weighed 229 at 6 ft 5 before the Bruno fight. Frank bullied Lennox physically in that fight with his " super sports science " physique.

In another example Wladimir K weighed a mere 224 pounds vs Puritty pre Wlad being put on the gear.He ended up around 245 on the gear.

Put Ali and Holmes on the same sports drugs that the modern guys are on and they would weigh around 230. They have the height and reach to do so.

Cheers All.

 

In the heat of the moment while he was being heckled by Marciano's brother, who displayed a singular lack of class.

 

Don't hold your breath!

 

What I would take away from your response is ,you will go to any lengths to imply you are not wrong and cannot ever be!

 

It matters because you're using them as an argument that Ali was a greater puncher than Marciano and he was not.

How many world class fighters were there around that weighed 210 lbs plus? Only Joe Louis. How many world class fighters that were 230 lbs plus did Ali stop? Welp, looks like he can't stop anyone world class that weighs over 230 lbs...

Why would it matter that Marciano stopped someone that weighed 10 lbs heavier than the fighters of his day? Are you really letting 10 lbs stop you from rating Marciano as a puncher? That's a shame...

 

So everybody is on drugs.

Evidence?

None.

 

In no universe is Ali a better puncher than Marciano.

Good day.

 

If boxing is at least 50+% about punching, I would say Ali is a better, more effective puncher.

I don't think Marciano would have had a prayer of stopping Foreman but Ali did. I give Marciano a very low probability of stopping Liston. And I think that Ali would have dismembered C ockell in a couple laughably one-sided rounds.

 

You know damn well that we're talking about power Did Ali have better technique and speed? Yes. Nobody is disputing that.

Did you hear that Berbick beat Ali? He must be an ATG!

If you see a problem with my statement, then maybe you can see the problem with yours, too. That's not the whole story, is it?

 

It isn't just the age. its the mileage on their clocks!
36 years old Lewis had 41 fights when he re-matched Rahman.
38 years old Walcott had 71 fights when he defended against Marciano.
33 years old Charles had 100 fights !
38/40 years old Moore had 174fights!
Spot the difference?

 

Marciano fought big guys up to 6"5 and over 250 on his way up but there was not many in the top ranks then. Carmine Vingo was 6"4. When Marciano worked his way to the title & became champ it was not his fault that the bigger guys like 6"3 Nino Valdes lost 2x to the 5"11 Archie Moore who became the winner of the elimination. Valdes got another shot at elimination & he lost badly to the the 5"10 Bob Satterfield (who was already KO'd by Charles & Moore) another 6"2.5 Heavyweight Bob Baker was KO'd by Moore. There were big guys then but they just could not beat the smaller better men. Thing with Marciano was he fought the #1 contender 5 times out of 6

A close look at Holmes and you will see he never rematched a tough fight -Norton,Weaver,Witherspoon,Williams,Snipes. He never unified the title so lived in a split title era with guys like Tate,Coetzee,Thomas,Dokes,Weaver,Page as co-champs Most of his opponents were novice fighters 10 fight fighters , 13 fight guys,14 fight fighter & 15 fight fighters so somewhat of a padded title reign and then he lost to a lightheavyweight who was fighting his first heavyweight fight Michael Spinks (who was a talented guy but IMO not in the class of the Ezzard Charles who Marciano fought nor an Archie Moore who was on a 50 fight run marred only by a DQ & a disputed decision that he avenged by KO (Harold Johnson

On Holmes way to the title Don King got caught paying off John Ort Ring ratings to boost Holmes opponent Tom Prator in the rating to appear more credible as an elimination opponent so there was padding on that record.

Holmes had some excellent tools but I just see the Marciano right hand finding a Home and Marciano was not limited to just the right his left hook joined in very well. Shavers was not too big about 6'( Shavers had one punch power but lacked stamina) & 5"10 Tyson found his home on Holmes with the right hand. Perhaps it would have taken Marciano longer than it took Tyson but Marciano may have been a more grueling battle and the late rounds would be living hell. I could see Holmes jab being a problem for anyone but Holmes also could be countered.

I see Marciano catching up with tired Holmes in rds 10-15 & to get the KO

 

Shavers had speed that Marciano didn't possess and he had a 79" reach that Marciano was a good 10" short of possessing. The 5'10" Tyson had speed that Marciano couldn't have dreamt of. We are talking opposite ends of the scale insofar as heavyweights. And... why you feel the need to compare a late stage Holmes to a prime Marciano with these Tyson and Spinks fights? Is that the best you can hope for?

Again, Holmes had oodles more speed, talent, length, technique, stamina and he had more heart.

Holmes KO8.

 

Prime Holmes avoided the better fighters of his era,never unified & avoided tough rematches so It would be a guess for me how he would have done against the best fighters of his era (that he never fought or failed to rematch) Marciano did the opposite fighting the best of his era & rematching tough fights. Shavers was not fast,he hit hard but had stamina problems & folded. Quarry & Ron Stander & others took his shots & took him out. In Marciano you would have a beast coming at you for 15 rds. When you say heart are you saying Holmes had more heart than Marciano ? quite an extrapulation based on what? Remember Spinks never fought as a heavyweight & he was the least of the challenges ( Holmes could have unfied vs Tate,Weaver,Coetzee,Dokes,Thomas, but never did) he could have rematched Norton,Weaver( who was a 18-9 big underdog & gained confidence & a title after the Holmes fight) He could have rematched 15 fight Witherspoon & truth Williams( who many felt beat him) but did not

Im not going to change your mind Seamus nor do I care to. You have your opinion and I have mine, I still rate Larry up there but not sure he would have held the title for as long had he fought the many either he or his management avoided during his day.

 

Hi all, I always find it pretty funny how Rocky's biggest fans have him kayoing guys like Ali and Holmes when he couldnt kayo a very ring worn Ezzard Charles in their first fight. Rocky was also behind on the cards by a considerable margin when he kayoed the 37 year old Walcott in the thirteenth round.

Willis " Red " Applegate and Tiger Ted Lowry ( twice ) also made the final bell against Rocky as did Roland La Starza.

I just watched the Marciano vs C o ckell fight and to say I was unimpressed with Rocky is to use some pretty heavy understatement. The feather fisted C o ckell kept catching Rocky as Marciano tried to bullrush in early in the fight.He actually marked Marciano up a bit as well.

It was only when the chubby Englishman's conditioning started to give way in round four that Rocky started to really batter him and he was also allowed to use some pretty obvious foul tactics.

C o ckell wouldnt have gone 4 rounds with a prime Cassius Clay- Muhammad Ali or Larry Holmes in my opinion.

Whatever anyone says C o ckell and La Starza ( who Rocky stopped ) were the only two guys Rocky fought for the crown who weren't ring worn fighters. Moore had been a pro for twenty years when he fought Rocky, Charles had been pro for 15 years while Walcott had been a pro for 22 years when he defended against Marciano which is unbelievable.

People used to believe the world was flat.....