Could Marciani carry Holmes jock strap? Holmes vs Marciano

Yup, its pretty hard to get a title shot when you are 6 ft under ground mate

 

As much as I am an Ali fan I would actually agree with that ETM. Apart from Liston and Patterson Ali's challengers in his first reign as champion weren't exactly killers ( and Floyd was a small heavyweight). Zora Folley and Cleveland Williams were way past their best. London, Cooper and Mildenberger were mediocre, Terrell and Chuvalo were big and tough but limited.

Pretty much par for the course as the heavyweight division is usually pretty ordinary.

 

Well that is finished!

 

This is a good point. Ali was better in the 1960s but the guys in the 1970s get credit for giving a declining Ali tougher opposition.

There is probably less between the 1960s guys and 1970s guys than we think.

I think 1950s Bob Baker and Nino Valdes were as good as guys like Lyle and Norton. Colour TV really enhances the 1970s.

 

Being floored 35 times indicates his chin wasn't that sturdy. BTW That is being stopped 4 times up to the Marciano fight.

 

He got stopped 4 times, so what? Over the same period Moore had scored one hundred and eight knockouts within 149 wins! In his last 6 bouts Archie was coming off huge wins over Olson, Valdez, whithurst, johnson, Baker and Maxim. It’s one of the most incredible runs of all time. Terrific form.

 

How many of those ko's were against heavyweights? What's huge about him beating the middleweight champion and lhvyMaxim who couldn't punch his way out of a paper bag?
You present Moore's 106 kos with a flourish,let's take a look at some of these victims.
billy Simms
Kid Pocahontas
Murray Allen
Dynamite Payne
Johnny Dennis
Joe Huff
Ham Founder
Karl Martin
Frank Hatfield
Al Dublinsky
Charley Dawson
Chuck Vickers
Sammy Jackson
Karl Lautenschaleger
Jimmy Brent
Ray Vargas
Johnny Sikes
Tom Henry
Robby Yannes
Ray Lyle
Bob Turner
Jack Moran
Domenico Ceccarelli
Bobby Seaman
Bun Ray
Jack McNamee
Joe Delaney
Frank Lindsay
Pancho Ramirez
Clay Rowan
Bobby Britt
Al Globe
Jimmy Casino
Tabby Romero
Eddie Cerdan
Kid Hermosillo
Amando Rodriguez
Roan Starr
Louis Mays
Johnny Hayden
Battling Monroe
Joey Jones
Bob Jacobs
Napoleon Mitchell
O ' Dell Riley
George Parks
Verne Escoe
Jimmy O 'Brien
George Fitch
Dusty Wilkerson x2
Charley Williams x2
Alabama Kid x2
Bob Sikes
Vernon Williams
JohnThomas
Herman Harris
Vicente Quiroz
Victor Carbajal
Americo Capitano
Rafael Miranda
Alfredo Lagay
Al Spaulding
Frank Buford
Rinaldo Ansoloni
That's 67 names that were not even household names in their own house holds!
If they were on Cleveland Williams C.V. you would be having a field day picking them to pieces!

 

Where is Big Bob Baker on that list? How about Embrel Davidson? Or Clarence Henry? Karel Sys? Nino Valdes? Those guys eclipse anything on Cleveland Williams record.

When did Williams beat a Valdes, a Baker, a Hall, a Davidson or a Sys?

Sure Moore beat guys called Dusty Wilkerson. But Willliams beat guys called Baby Booze, graveyard Walters and Candy McDaniels. Hell, Williams even lost to guy beaten by a guy called Shirley!!

 

I gave you 67 nobodies that pad Moore's record .
Most of them were middleweights and lhvy's BTW.

Sys was Euro level ,Hall was a sparring partner. Davidson was fleetingly a fringe contender.
This isn't about comparing Williams to Moore, it's about comparing your blatant and continuous dishonesty when framing arguments by using palpably obvious double standards!

 

Where’s the double standard? Nino Valdes was #1 heavyweight contender. Baker was the #2 heavyweight contender. Archie legitimately beat who he had to beat to legitimately be where he was.

There are umpteen other examples of decent full sized heavyweights Archie beat up. Clearance Henry, Bert Whithurst. Alejandro Lavorante. Pete Radmacher. Howard King. Alberto Santiago Lovell. James J Parker. Willie Besmanoff. Hans Kalbfell. Charlie Norkus, Bob Albright. There is any amount of them. No double standard. In fact Archie is the gold standard.

 

The double standard is you incessantly saying Cleveland Williams kos were over men less than top flight.Then you prattle bout Moore's long ko list over middleweight and light heavyweight nobodies!

 

You guys are worth the price of admission.

 

Never in a million years. “Sonny could easily have been champ in 57 or 58 and made a 6 or 7 year run at the top”

In 1957 Sonny was in the slammer. He never fought at all in 1957. He’s going to challenge from a jail cell with no ranking??? This is outlandish mumbo Jumbo.

Not one of the 7 men Liston fought in 1958 had a world ranking so I don’t see Sonny legitimately earning a title fight that year. It’s impossible.

1959, Sonny begins to meet name fighters. But nothing that could eclipse the men who actually challenged Floyd or Ingo that year.

Without the rematch clause that Ingo and Floyd were tied to, you could legitimately argue that Sonny conceivably could have challenged for a title in 1960. At least he was qualified by then.

So you are years out.

 

Yes I prattle about Moore’s KO list over nobodies ....

What about the legit wins over #1 and #2 heavyweight contenders? Nino Valdes and Bob Baker? Would you call them nobodies? Clarance Henry too?

It would be all so amusing if I neglected to mention that Moore legitimately beat worthy #1 and #2 heavyweight contenders. But of course Moore did legitimately beat Three top heavyweights too didn’t he?

 

He didn't stop either Henry or Valdes,Parker was stopped and knocked cold by light middleweight Charley Burley.Look a bit more closely at those 69 names I provided.