Could Marciani carry Holmes jock strap? Holmes vs Marciano

Hey, I hold my hand up. It goes for Ingo too. A blow out dosnt show what the other man had. Poor Machen was taken out of the equation before he got going. Like Foreman blowing out Norton it flatters him somewhat.

But the win is still a matter of record and the stature of that kind of win still stands.

 

Haha..

Love seeing the Foreman/Anti Marciano crowd getting their own argument turned on them and being less logical than they accused Marciano fans of being.

"Nobody pushes Foreman....because hes Foreman."

 

Yes but we are the guys with the agenda!!

Rocky can’t beat a 30lb bigger guy with 3+ inches in height advantage... but Foreman can because he’s Foreman!

 

Big men who do not know how to fight a small man are at just as much a disadvantage. There is an equal chance in keeping away as there is being crowded and stretched.

I don't honestly understand the mentality myself. Yes, I get that big guys are impressive to look at, and yeah I understand youse hear " He uses his size" or " Look at how he moves for a HW" but it seems to me most just disconnect what the others are doing from those statements.

Foreman used his size properly for who he fought. It's fine to praise Big G for the ability to use his size however George only used his size properly for standard and basic forms. I don't mean easy I mean staple.

Here's a real easy one. Foreman fought Frazier and Frazier is similar to Rock right? Well, did Foreman one time ever deal with Frazier cross stepping to the left hook? Gazelle punch I've heard it called. No, Frazier is a shuffler, he's a little bigger than Marciano and a little closer to George so it could work for him, plus it's the normal way to do it. It's basic feet not unorthodox feet. It can't work for Marciano which is why he had a different approach. To say George used his size well against Frazier so it'd work well against Marciano is like saying Marciano's leap covers the same distances as Frazier shuffle, which is silly as ****. Or for that matter that George has shown an ability to deal with a Gazelle.

Maybe that's a bit specific. What I mean is when you tell me a guy like George was huge and did well against skilled opponents you're telling me you believe there is an analog between said opponent's skill set and Marciano's which I just don't see. Frazier is the closest and Frazier is much more your average boxer in terms of theory he uses than Marciano.

Write me a scenario that actually acknowledges Rocky as a capable HW who potentially could stretch out anyone but George wins because... Otherwise you're clearly blinding yourself to technique to stay in the world of vague bullshitting.

I mean really, if due to size you strip Marciano his own ability to work size what has he left in his skills? Everything is built around his anatomy, his traits, skills, talents, it's all because Rocco's short, got T-rex arms, tree trunk thighs, and ball-peen hammers for fists. If that's not reflected in the big man beat down you're not giving Rocco enough credit or respect.

I'm fine with George winning the fantasy debate. I love me some George and I could go one for days on how Wilder reminds me of both George and Marciano, but their skills and particular way of utilizing size should be considered not washed away by the other's greatness or resume.

Same goes for George. If you tell me Marciano was good at stretching out and he'd've definitely stretched G, I'd want a little more specifics on how exactly you see that happening because Marciano was good at stretching out guys who had very deceptive plans for him and ate quite a lot getting there. He never really got bullied, no one really tried. Cockell did quite well with it and is probably the biggest overachiever from Marciano's resume. There's definitely room for George to just push Marciano around and batter him.

Either way, it's the skills more than size.

 

I should add, the point is I'd rather like a mental image of what youse are trying to say, but all I ever get is tid bits. A man three inches bigger than Marciano. Alrighty, got him in my head, now what do I do with him?

 

During Foreman''s heydey he was one of the bigger, stronger heavyweights at the elite level. So it's no surprise he would give the impression of being strong. But the division has changed dramatically since then. I think it's reasonable to conclude that Wlad and Joshua are both stronger than Foreman even if Foreman was unusually strong for his size. Ike Ibeabuchi might also be stronger.

 

You won’t ever see anything so sophisticated from the Foreman camp as having to acknowledge a smaller fighter being capable in any department. It’s always “George wins because he’s so much bigger and stronger”. Always.

They don’t even want to hear about George not being big enough or strong enough for a guy even bigger and stronger than he was. This is what you are up against.

 

PERFECT!!!

 

Renaldo Snipes for one...

 

That's all this is...everyone's opinion....you can't prove it one way or the other!!!

 

Precisely. It’s all our opinions. But be careful anybody who disagrees with the Roccophobes gets called crazy..

 

I spent my week long vacation pretty much watching everything I could of Holmes and I have to say that @Seamus and @mcvey have to be some of the most dishonest posters on this subject so I'll go through and address a variety of issues.

First I'm going to talk about his quality of opposition:
Norton - 34 year old who went on the rest of his career 2-2-1. A knockout win over a no hoper, a split decision against one dimensional Cobb, a draw to LeDoux, and 2 first round knockout losses. This man gave Holmes his toughest fight of his career. We saw Holmes gas out around the 10th round and Norton took over until the 15th. By the standard of @Seamus this man is a geriatric.
Evangelista - I don't think I have to address this too deep. He was pretty much devoid of skill and had no business in there. C level fighter who is pretty much a testament to the utter weakness of Holmes' era.
Ocasio - 13-0 green as they come.
Weaver - Unknown fighter at the time. 19-8 at the time. This was a cherry pick gone wrong.
Shavers - Another geriatric according to @Seamus Shavers put Holmes on the canvas twice (the second one ruled a slip). Again, we saw Holmes getting tired half way through the fight and the only thing that saved him from being put out was Shaver's bad conditioning. Shavers was so tired that his hands were hardly protecting him and Holmes was allowed to go all out on him for a significant period. Holmes wasn't able to even knock Shavers down who had been put out by Lyle, Quarry, and Stander previously. Shavers had a 79 inch reach but fought as if he had a 69 inch reach. Shavers never used his reach and insisted on fighting at close range.
Zanon - This dude was literally balding when he fought Holmes. B level opponent (B for balding).
Jones - Big fat boy. Had actual fat seeping over his trunks. Probably spent more time in the donut shop than in the gym. I mean this dude actually looks like someone's stereotypical fat redneck dad except black. You could see more movement from his man boobs than his feet.
LeDoux - B level opponent. 26-8-4 record. Weak title defense.
Ali - 38 years old, another geriatric. Not close to prime. Hadn't fought in 2 years. Not really any chance.
Berbick - I don't think this man knew the meaning of the word strategy. All he did the entire fight was bull in and swing wildly. There was no rhyme or reason to his fighting style.
Spinks - 14 fights into his career. Lost to an old Ali.
Snipes - "Holmes was such a heavy favorite that there was no betting line on the fight." I think that pretty much says it all. This guy dropped Holmes too. Snipes went on to win 1 of his next 6 fights then took a 2 year hiatus. The rest of his record is padded with journeymen.
Cooney - White hope in an ultra-hyped fight. Did very good until he got knocked out. Without the point deductions Cooney would have been winning the fight at the time it was stopped.
Cobb - Worst mismatch in the history of boxing.
Rodriguez - Lost to Evangelista...twice...
Witherspoon - 15 fight novice. Almost beat Holmes. Some say he did. Is there any heavyweight in history that you would pick over Holmes when they were only 15 fights into their career or that was even experienced enough to beat Holmes? I know I wouldn't. Maybe Jeffries but thats a very long stretch.
Frank - Nothing significant before Holmes and he retired after this bout.
Frazier - Had 10 fights...
Smith - 14-1. 31 years old, balding. Pretty sure he wasn't even an active fighter in his prime.
Bey - 14-0. Dad bod. Balding. He probably wasn't even capable of building the muscle required to be successful fighter.
Williams - 16-0 and he arguably beat Holmes. Was robbed.

All in all Holmes defended against 6 guys 30 years or older, had 3 defenses where it can be argued very successfully that he lost, and defended against 9 guys with 20 fights or less. Undoubtedly one of the weakest title runs possible.

The next point I would like to bring up is his offense. Or perhaps lack thereof. His offense consisted mainly of the jab. All he does his jab and occasionally throw a right hand. Nothing else. Rarely throws any combinations, his accuracy wasn't very good. I mean I literally watched him tee off on a stationary Shavers and miss. In between rounds 13 and 14 I think a replay is shown of Holmes unloading on Norton and while the commentators thought they saw great punches being landed on Norton the replay showed Holmes missing everything. It was pretty unimpressive and a let down. How is this guy supposed to beat Marciano when he doesn't even put his punches together? His skill set is completely amateurish, his legs are incredibly stiff all the time, his stamina wasn't even close to Marciano's and the lack of an in depth amateur pedigree is very apparent.

Larry Holmes was NOT Muhammad Ali. Stop associating them they are not the same. Ali had a much better jab and was 10x more skilled. Just because they sparred, just because they were both black, just because they both used the jab heavily, just because they both fought in the 70s does NOT mean they were the same fighter.

Marciano would take Holmes out of there and put him to sleep by the 10th round.

 

(yawn)

 

"Ali had a much better jab and was ten times more skilled". There's a weeks ban that could have been better employed actually watching and comparing Holmes and Ali so that an informed opinion would have been forthcoming. What do we get instead? A personal attack in the first sentence of his first post.

Ground Hog Day.

 

I´m stunned. This is probably the biggest pile of imbecilic dung i´ve ever read on this forum. A guy finding 20 (yes TWENTY) excuses for defending a crown to a 48 - 0. Awesome. Just awesome.

(And compare that to a fighter defending against 5 different old men in an era of 185 pounders)