Could Muhammad Ali have made the Manilla fighy easier for himself ?

Everything you've said is true.

I think the biggest thing was conditioning and his approach. He didn't train as hard as he should have, and I've heard he focused alittle bit more on strength than he was used too, which slowed him down when it was supposed to make him punch harder. I don't have a source on that, just something my Dad heard.

He also took the center of the ring in the first 3 or 4 rounds and tried to stop Joe. Anybody who disagrees needs to watch Part 1 and 2 of any youtube video of the contest. Ali throws about 80 punches a round, which is high for him, and is clearly trying to do damage. He spent more energy early than he was in shape to spend.

I think it all points to Ali expecting to run over Joe. Joe was determined not to be run over, and Ali had a much tougher fight on his hand than he trained for.

 

I noticed this too. He was centre ring and was really trying to hurt Joe in the early rounds. I think it's similar to an oxygen deficit with running, he went at a pace that affected him for the latter half of the fight. Strange tactics. Ali wasn't known for his ability to stop guys and Frazier was a highly motivated and gutsy fighter. Something else i noticed was the ease that Ali was pushing Joe around which was somewhat of a precursor for the Foreman fight.

 

Joe was supposed to be a mostly spent force by now. Ali REALLY wanted to put him away. It was important to him. He had what he considered to be an eroded rival in front of him and thought that the best way to end the trilogy was an early stoppage.

I do use this fight to show people that Ali COULD hurt Joe Frazier, though. Frazier doesn't back up for nothing, and many times in this fight, Ali would hit him with barrages of shots that not only backed Joe off, but put him on the ropes. Ali definitely had underrated power.

Another credit is, Joe Frazier had such a heart. He was eroded, and not at his best, and was really struggling with his left eye at this point, but he trained like an animal for Manila and it is a classic case of a faded fighter giving 120% in one last fight to recapture some old form. I think Manila took just as much out of Joe as it did Ali, as Joe never looked good again.

 

He says so himself in his autobiography. And he looks bulkier than normal.

 

Yep. He ceratinly was looking for an early stoppage. Just like in FOTC. He paced himself a bit better in Manilla, though.

True, but Ali had worked extra much on his power before this one. It was probably the hardest he ever hit.

 

Ali couldn't really succeed in dancing from Joe even in the 2nd fight : that's why he kept holding on - Frazier kept closing him down.
Padilla didn't allow the holding as much in Manila, so I don't think Ali could have fought a better fight.

I think Ali fought the right fight, the ONLY fight there was to fight.
Yes, he was about 5 or 6 pounds too heavy, but his fitness looked pretty good in there, didn't it ?

 

I was thinking of the first fight from memory...atsch

I felt Ali was trying to be hurtfull early there too and standing ground instead of moving.

In regards to Manilla, yes i think Ali was looking for something emphatic to draw a line underneath the series. Even relatively light punches make you reset yourself, especially a come forward fighter. Ali was a big guy with long arms and speed, so he could put a bit of snap there when he chose to, i think he is rated about right in that regard.

 

You'd be shocked how many new school boxers and coaches rate him as an almost non-puncher. Its just asinine. He was LETHAL when he was sharp. Fast, snappy, sneaky right hands and left hooks that could catch you clean and unawares.

I point to the Ringo knockout, a sudden left hook against a fighter with a good jaw who had taken his best for 14 rounds. One shot, and he's just gone.

You're right about the FOTC. He had a similar game plan, but I feel it was less arrogance in the first fight and more intensity and looking to get right at Joe. In Manila, I really think Ali expected him to fall over.

 

This doesn't make sense to me. If he was 5-6 lbs too heavy, he definitely wasn't as fit as he should have been.

220 lbs was normally his weight when at his fittest after Zaire, so either he had bulked up for this one (which he says he did) or he wasn't in top form. I'll go for the first alternative.

 

Yeah? I thought that was more old-school thinking; you know "if you don't commit to every punch like Louis or the Rock, you're not punching like a real man", but obviously I was wrong. The head trainer at my gym is new school, but likes Ali's punching.

 

Yes sir. Absolutely correct.

One thing that a lot of fans or outside spectators don't seem to realize about pro boxers, is it is very rare that a guy just doesn't train. 95% of the time, a focused pro, and Ali was always this, will train hard. Its just how hard, and did they train right.

Ali didn't go the extra mile preparing for Manila, which he did in his best performances, and he tried out a new strength regimen which he abandoned because it didn't work. I don't think he was out of shape in there, just in the wrong shape and not at his best.

I might be in between schools, haha. I went from fighter, to coach, to fighter again, to coach again, to fighter again now in my forties. I've been trained by over 50 years of boxing generations. Maybe I'm confused!

 

Yeah. He would have been plenty strong at 220 lbs and punch hard enough to get Joe's attention. To put on 5 lbs of extra muscle was a dangerous experiment and it almost backfired.