Could prime Joe Louis overcome 1974 George Foreman

Schmeling absolutely positively did exploit a flaw. One can argue it took an excellent eye and skillset to do it but do it he did. If there was no flaw why did Blackburn do a training session aimed entirely at fixing the "flaw" after Schmeling belted him all night with right hands?

You didn't have to be Schmeling to catch Joe, loads did it. Foreman will too. This is what the match boils down to - can Louis survive and then thrive after taking a bomb from Foreman especially given he's a far better fighter and finisher than the likes of Braddock, Galento etc etc.

 

Maybe Joe Louis corrected his vulnerability to the right hand following the first Schmeling bout in 1936 , however in subsequent title bouts after beating James J. Braddock in 1937, Louis did taste the canvas before coming on to win those title defenses. Against a power punching fighter like 1974 George Foreman, that would not be a good idea as Foreman would be on Louis like a shark that smells blood in an ocean, he would not allow Louis to breath as George would continue his brutal assault on Louis should a knockdown occur. Remember we are talking about a 1974 George Foreman not the post Zaire ego deflated Foreman who himself tasted the canvas on Jan 24 1976 against Ron Lyle, but a super confident Foreman who was trying to emulate his boyhood hero Charles Sonny Liston. As mentioned previously, if this bout takes place before Oct 30 1974 when George met 32 year old challenger Muhammad Ali, this posted outcome could be possible in my opinion.

 

Schmeling figured out the exact range and angle to land his right hand into someone who utilized the Blackburn Crouch stance.
Louis never changed his stance. Maybe he made adjustments to how he would specifically defend against incoming rights but there's only so much you can do that Louis didn't already try in the Schmeling fight.
Does this look like Schmeling exploiting a flaw to you? Where's the flaw with Louis' technique here: https://imgur.com/a/kO2xZu3

There was a brilliant video by Wylies Art and Science boxing channel but he took them all down after Anthony Joshua's team hired him as a footage analyst. That should give an idea about the guy's credentials.
In his video the guy thoroughly explained that Schmeling didn't just a exploit a flaw, if it was a flaw everyone would have exploited it, but only Max did it.
The reason is that Max kept using range (either being too far or too close) to protect himself and then used angles by planting his foot just right to create a direct line between his right and Louis jaw as it was positioned in his crouched stance, in such a way that Louis' default shoulder shielding of the jaw wouldn't stop Max's right from landing.
He then also put himself into position to lure jabs from Louis and then leaned back as they came, landing harmlessly on his face (sometimes not, many caught him flush until he figured out the range) and then fired his right as Louis' left was returning to its position.
I have no confidence that Foreman will be able to consistently create angles using crouching, wide stance to lean and lure, and have a right fast and accurate enough to reliably land the way Max did.

Walcott is the only man who landed his right consistently, and in two fights he couldn't land nearly as many on a faded Louis than Schmeling did on a basically prime version of him.
The next was Ezzard Charles but are we talking about Louis anymore?

The better argument is, you didn't have to be Schmeling to catch Louis with a left or with a right, so Foreman can catch Louis with a good punch. But that he can reliably position himself and have the right hand speed to consistently do it like Max did is ridiculous. Are we going to compare Schmeling's technique to the "dope" from Zaire?

Better question, why is the rhetoric "can Louis survive if Foreman drops him?"
We saw Louis get caught flush by Buddy Baer. We saw him still be aware enough to catch himself on the ropes, he then casually got up and got back into the ring. That punch definitely hurt but Louis took it as well as one could take a shot flush from Buddy.
Yes Foreman is a better fighter than Baer but are we questioning Baer's power at this point?
Louis got up and was ready to do business.
Foreman was badly hurt from Lyle who was in Baer's class as a power puncher.
Instead of thinking what Foreman does in Braddock's shoes, think what Louis does in Lyle's shoes, seeing a hurt George rising in front of him.
So no I'm not too worried about what happens if Foreman drops Louis. George could drop any man from Liston to Tyson and Lennox. Louis is the one I'd have most confidence in to fight back after that knockdown.

 

OUTSTANDING summary---best I've seen on this thread!! 100% on board with this analysis!!

 

Crying like a little girl because you get your head handed to you for writing something absurdly stupid when trying to convince people that you have a clue about the sport?

Take a Midol for your cramps … lolol.

 

Nah, your treatment was fine and it’s all opinion based anyway - it’s just that it can be problematic transferring the action/reaction fingerprint of one performance against a particular fighter to another hypothetical opponent.

Say, for example. some might take and overweight Coopers decking of Ali to say, well if Henry could do that, Dempseys left hook definitely gets home and murders Ali. Or some other analogy similar to that.

We know there are important and due qualifications as to how and why that particular KD came about.

If that KD truly reflected an unconditional vulnerability open to all to take advantage of, then Ali would’ve gone by the wayside shortly thereafter against better competition.

The irony is, such glitches are perhaps more likely to occur against lesser opposition - - rather than opposition a fighter takes far more seriously and is duly prepared for.

However, people will still cite such examples and suggest that if “B” grade opponent could do this...then “A” opponent is gonna do it even better...it simply doesn’t always work that way - if very much at all..just imo.

 

Not to raise this as evidence for either side of the debate.

Just my perception of Louis vs Schmeling 1.

Max’s observation was that Louis, after jabbing, didn’t immediately re-holster his left into the guard position - and Louis held that left a bit low anyway - but apparently not uncommon for the time.

When I last watched the fight a while back, I noticed that Max wasn’t countering after every left jab - at least no so much earlier in the fight.

To me, that suggested that while Louis had a flaw, given all else he had in his armoury, it didn’t necessarily make him a sitting duck - and at least not in the face of most other fighters.

Max absolutely picked his moments beautifully to load up and counter.

He also shipped some reasonable punishment whilst executing his strategy - not something a lot of fighters are prepared to endure. Ali did same when he fought Foreman in Zaire - the rope a dope was definitely not a one size fits all strategy that any one could utilise to roll Foreman over.

Though I do think Lyle took a leaf with the lead right hands - no one was audacious enough to try that until Ali.

Anyway, back to Joe vs Max 1, with the punishment accumulating on Joe, naturally increasing his vulnerability, the right hands landed more and more and it continued to play out and snowball on Joe as it did.

Re the rematch in 1938. @JohnThomas1 and I discussed this feature some time back. Louis’ left was obviously held that much higher, and the return to guard after jabbing that much better.

Of course that fight didn’t last long enough for Max to try many right hand counters.

However, there was one worth noting - and Louis was prepared as described above - returning the hand to guard after jabbing BUT, just as important, Joe also took a small/half step back after jabbing - double insurance you might call it - and Max’s right hand, which didn’t at all look shabby in its execution, felt just short.

Louis displayed a lot of nuanced attributes that you don’t see demonstrated today.

Not to be smug, but you have to look real close for some of those talents/abilities - there were features to Louis I certainly missed for a good while until I gave him a far better study.

Even purposefully left booking Braddocks right hand guard away to open a clear path for Louis’ bone crushing right hand - that’s levels above what you see these days.

To see how Joe (and/or his trainer) modified the style etc. from the first Schmeling fight to the rematch was highly impressive.

For all fantasy fights in which Louis might not be projected as the victor, following rematches surely have to be considered - along with reasonably entertained modifications and improvements on Joe’s part.

 

Why would he change his stance when hand positioning was the problem. He did some very ordinary things vs Schmeling and Schmeling was skilful enough to make him pay. Guys like Baer sure didn't have the skills to counter and even lead like Schmeling. Walcott did and dropped him multiple times. As for Louis trying everything one could he got belted with flush rights all night both as a counter to the jab and as a lead. Schmeling drew him in all night.....he pawed and feinted with his jab rather than giving Louis the countering opportunities he loved so much off it.

There's also the fact of Blackburn telling Louis continually between rounds to keep his guard up.......because he simply wasn't. Also Blackburn post fight - "Chappy, you gonna keep getting knocked out if you don't do what i tol' you".

You didn't seriously put up a single still pic as evidence Louis had no technical deficiency that night, you just didn't. Also Chappy after the fight, per Louis' words - "Chappie and i went over what was wrong, this time i listened. He told me Max was a different kind of fighter for me. He was a counterpuncher. He told me i kept dropping my left hand after a jab, and Max just kept shooting his right hand over it. He said we'd fix that wll up". There was a bit more to it than that but that was obviously Blackburn's primary focus. In prep for Sharkey Blackburn lectured him on the fine points of blocking and slipping the sort of right hands that Schmeling had used so effectively. In sparring he practised both defending against right hand onslaughts and countering them.

Here's what i posted ages ago to go further -

Lets dig deeper on this one.

We know Joe Louis horsed around in training for probably the only time in his life. I mention it often. But upon reviewing the fight again the biggest reason Schmeling schooled him, and it was a schooling, is because Louis was a technical MESS at this point in time.

Most of us boxing nuts know the story of Louis bringing his jab back low and leaving openings for right hand counters. It's the story of the fight. Louis got hit with countless flush right hands.

But we can look deeper. There are other factors going on that are never highlighted.

When Louis wasn't bringing the jab back low he was leaving it hanging out there, any amount if times. This is ok at times but it sure wasn't doing anything for Joe this night. He was also never getting his head off the line. He was also pawing a lot with uncommitted half hearted jabs with no snap and he sure got countered plenty at such times.

Adding insult to injury - when he was throwing the jab he was oh so often thrusting his own right hand out with the jab almost as if expecting a jab in return and looking to parry. This was leaving his right hand extended out and not in any sort of position to throw. So Schmeling was getting a completely free invitation to counter the Louis jab with zero chance of being in danger from a right hand counter. He rode that pony all night. The few times Louis threw the right hand from such a position he pulled it back about 8" first then let rip.......Max wasn't getting hit with that sort of telegraphed right hand.

Another thing rarely if ever mentioned is how little Schmeling threw committed jabs. Louis loved countering jabs with booming right hands and Schmeling really starved him of this. On top of this Schmeling threw a TON of lead rights throughout the fight and these were probably more prominent than the right hand counters. They landed flush over Louis' low left hand time and time and time again all fight. Joe never looked like finding an answer. His chin was like a magnet for them, a home.

Have a look at this video at 16.35, 17.26 and 17.32 to get an idea of what i am talking about per the right hand position. It goes on all fight.

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Now i need to give Max credit too, obviously. He came in with the perfect plan and took away quite a bit of Joe's offense while driving his own home with superb timing round after round after round. Brilliant. He was also totally on point defensively as Grey pointed out. To beat Louis you first had to survive him of course.

 

No doubt Max did a great job that night but as pointed out there were drama's going on for louis, to put it mildly. He'd also trained poorly to add insult to injury. He wasn't shoulder shielding jack the problem was more his hand positioning. Foreman doesn't have to be Max he has his own avenues. He has a left hook Schmeling could only dream of.

Foreman doesn't have to land right hands all night or even that often. His power is multiple levels above Schmeling. Joe was also caught by the likes of Conn and Braddock among others. You don't box and not get hit. He was often caught off balance which led to most of his KD's.

"Ridiculous" is a strawman in this case. No-one is saying that will happen because......George sure don't need to hit anyone all night to end them. The question is who will survive the others firepower because it's almost certain both will be tested. Who will respond better.

Because Foreman is miles better than those that did and hits as hard as anyone just about ever. He's also proven himself to be a terrifying finisher. I debated at length most of Louis' KD's were flash and he was much hurt and i stand by it. This doesn't mean they won't be heavier when Foreman gets a hold of him.

Buddy didn't hurt him that much at all. Another of those KD's where his base betrayed him. Levels.

I'm not overly fussed on Foreman post Ali. Louis wasn't the same post war either. Foreman had also had a very long layoff and was trying to fight a very different style.

I have no doubt Joe would fight back and it's at this point one of them could well win the fight. Both will be in a position to potentially exploit the other.

 

Nobody's "crying like a little girl". From what I remember about your rant, I could've easily pointed out Lyle fought a far inferior version of Foreman, who'd drastically changed his style and body mechanics, which greatly reduced his power, and in particular his jab but what's the point? You clearly have no intentions of being remotely objective.

I briefly mentioned Foreman in passing in my post, and you go off on another one of your juvenile rants, like you always do at every mention of his name.

One could make a list of every heavyweight champion, and you'd jump the second Foreman's name comes up, and go on a wild tangent.

Now that behavior is very much "like a little girl". You certainly have the maturity of one.

 

Louis blacked out after the first knockdown, he was pretty much sleepwalking for the rest of the fight. There is no other fight were he routinely got tagged with right hands.
You make some decent points.

 

Yes it's documented that he did. Even fighting on autopilot he was tagged too many times.

But that's all good because what matters is how you come back from it and he came back magnificently. As per my multiple points he shored up that definite weakness and never dogged it in training ever again. It's the perfect example of how to come back from a whooping. Some never do. Louis came back bigger and better and the rest is history.

I'm a huge Louis fan and minorly favor him here but it irks me when people fixate on isolated points as if they are all that matter and that's that. Well if fighter X did that to him imagine what Y would do and they think it's game over. You see it in here all the time.

 

I feel the same way John. Sometimes when we are discussing a Fantasy Match, then some poster will interject with a fighter that we are not discussing because I think that they fear that their favorite will be forgotten, that kind of irks me. An example would be a Fantasy fight between peak Muhammad Ali vs Jack Johnson, then some wise guy has to enter Vitali Klitchko or someone from modern times, when we are not discussing them. "Oh my modern fighter could have crushed both like a bug". Oh my, I am impressed. Maybe they should shift their opinion to the General Forum instead of Classic.

 

Yeah there's a fair bit of off topic here Rich!!! Absolutely.

 

Yeah Buddy. I think that there is too much. Next time I will interject by saying, No, My fighter in this fantasy match could have bashed your fighter. Case Closed.