Could Ray Leonard have achieved greatness above welterweight?

At 154, the best he could have immediately done was beat Hearns again, or Benitez or Duran again. Guys who have moved up because they already lost to Leonard ! And it being a "junior division" I'm not sure that would give him much more greatness. Beating Mccallum would mean little in '83 or '84, and losing to him would have tarnished his legacy. Clealy, any move up was only meaningful if he went after Hagler.

It's debatable as to if he'd beat Hagler of 1983 or '84. Assuming the only way he beats Hagler is with that same strategy he used in '87, perhaps suggesting a close decision over 12 rounds is the best he could have achieved.

Staying at 147 would have been more interesting. Could he have successfully defended against the best available welterweights for the next 5 or 6 years ?

 

HE did

 

well he beat kalule already, he could have defended against hearns, mccallum and benitez. At MW he could have beat hagler earlier and then defended a few times.

the real question is would this have imporved his legacy much more? he already beat the bst WW, LMW and MW in the world.

 

Yes, he absolutely could have done this. Ray did not even open his training camps until he was below the division limit of the weight he would be competing at. He was not ever in anything less than top physical condition. Came in at 149 for Kevin Howard in 1984 after a hiatus of more than two years, and 154 for Terry Norris at age 34. Had no issues making 147 by the start of training for Hearns I after 153 for Kalule.

Ray was in a situation where he was going to dominate at 147 for as long as he cared to by the time he repelled Finch, and I was looking forward to his next WW Title defense with Roger Stafford when he withdrew from boxing, citing that torn retina. But had his total health remained intact, no, I do not see Stafford, Don Curry, Starling, McCrory, Colin Jones, LaRocca or Honeyghan (even against a 30 year old SRL) taking that title from him. I truly think he could have pushed for a dozen year reign at 147, even with the likes of Breland, Blocker, Simon Brown and Aaron Davis coming up.

The question is when does time (and probably inevitable drug use) catch up to him? I think the answer may well lie with the identity of the opponent who actually did send him into permanent retirement. Speedy southpaw Camacho moved into the ranks at 147 and I think always had the style to bewilder and befuddle Ray (who was a big fan from the time he saw Hector starch Montes in Anchorage).

It gets extremely dangerous to project when declining abilities would have combined with rising contenders to end his reign at 147, but I do believe such a decline would have been essential to his getting dethroned. Don't forget that he was still only 25 when Finch took place. The lost years may well have been his peak years, after which the experience he accrued would have been formidably pithy.

 

:dead

 

this obviously cannot be true since the McCallum fight couldve been made as soon as Sept., Oct. 1987 and it was never made

Sugar said he only wanted the one fight with Marvin yet there he was months later fighting someone named Don Lalonde without thumbless gloves

Again, after the Nunn-Kalambay fight, he had the chance to meet the winner and again failed to show interest.

He was more interested in meeting with badly worn tommy Hearns. Doesnt take a brave man to wave a challenge against a man that had barely survived a match with James Kinchen

as for Kalule, we all knew he would take that fight. No surprise there. When he sighned to meet with the young, superfast phenom named Terry Norris, I could see a devastating defeat coming. Never had he met anyone who was so fast and sure enough, Ray Leonard could not cope

So the answer is NO. Ray Leonard would not have achieved greatness because we would have seen more but instead saw mediocre matchups, including the one with Hagler

 

So what you're basically saying, rooster...is that Leonard ducked the best fighters to instead do battle with prison gaurd and cab driver, Hagler and Hearns

 

How many welterweight champions have atained greatness as middleweights?

You could make cases for-

Tommy Ryan
Mickey Walker
Sugar Ray Robinson
SRL (depending on how you like the Hagler win)

 

Actually it proved he had the tools to be an elite Mw... Do you think the time off actually helped Ray? I think he would have been even sharper had he not had all that time off.. Ive scored the Hagler/Leonard fight twice.. First time i had Leonard.. 2nd time i watched it with the sound off, and since it was on tape i wasnt caught up in the drama and Leonards flash.. I scored it a draw. Yes Hagler was past his prime but Leonard was also also coming off a long layoff.. My first thought is to say Prime Hagler takes him, but a fresher SRL might have given any version Of Hagler problems.... As for Hearns yey i tend to agree with you, more times than not Hearns wins.. Hearns deserved their 2nd fight but remember he was also badly hurt at the end of the 12th.. Kind of makes you think the result would have been the same as their match at Welter if it was scheduled for 15... Final answer is yes, in HtH matches an equally faded Leonard proved to be on par with both guys (more or less). He would have beat Mccallum by close decision, beat Duran at JM (Although Duran was an awesom JM he had lost some speed since the Montreal fight at WW.. Leonard would box is way to a decision) Benitez looked really good at JM, im wondering if this was his peak weight? Benitez & Leonard might have been a tighter matchup at this weight..

Question for TM why dont u think he would achieve greatness at these weights? This was his first time going up as a pro and was always a big welter.. Lesser fighters than Ray have been great when moving up.,, One thing though although Leonard had decent pop at Mw he didnt seem to carry it up the way Hearns did.. Same with chin still solid but more vulnerable i think he had a rock chin at welter.

 

I'd have a lot of doubts for a lot reasons. I don't think he'd end up being at the top of heap like he was at welter. It would depend on how you define "greatness."

 

Yes if he fought a Hearns rematch at 154 , won and fought McCallum and won as well ... either fight would have been his toughest ever ...

 

Hagler? Hagler was toothless by 1987, 2 of his 3 belts gone. Why don't you mention that?

He was at the end of his career and the only reason he held even one belt is becuz they had to sanction the fight

face it, this fight was sloppy leftovers for the fans, nothing like the 1982/83 extravganza that was meant to be when YOUR man chickened out

"It's not there". Nothing but an overrated punk

And Hearns? Ray didnt have to wait until 89 for a rematch. He couldve had it right after the Howard fight. But why didnt he?

Suppose you answer that

All he did was go in there with Kalule and we all knew Kalule was there to lose his belt. No one even knew who Kalule was

But Norris? A man with SPEED?

I knew the moment the fight was signed that Leonard's time was up. No matter how the media had propped him up, i knew Leonard couldnt cope with so much hand and foot speed, the kind you see coming from Norris or Nunn

Notice how Leonard could rearely touch Norris? That's the result of Terry's foot speed. People like that dont get touched by combinations the way someone like a Dave Green or Lalonde do

Norris & Nunn, Hagler, Jones, Jackson, Camacho, guys like that have had the weakness bred out of them. These men have special talents but people like Kalule, dont have those kinds of physical gifts

anyways, you need to raise your standard for fighters instead of just settling for meaningless repeats and questionable comebacks

 

do you think he couldve taken someone like Nunn? Personally I dont. I think Mike wouldve taken him out without question

from what I seen in the Hagler fight, if he comes in as well prepared, he could decision someone like Graham, someone with not a lot of talent, or speed, power, or not very well trained, someone unheralded, not going anywhwere, just languising in the ratings, someone not well known, someone slow on his feet, a middleweight version of Lalonde perhaps or Kevin Howard

I think if he looked real hard he could find someone to make a defense after a few unexpected scrapes and bruises

but against a REAL contender, young and hot, like Nunn? Forget it my friend, that is NOT HAPPENING and we shouldnt fool ourselves

Mike would dictate the pace and make Ray move the way HE wanted to and make Ray come to him. and even when he doesn't Mike moves in quick with body shots beore Ray can even protect himself. If Ray tries to take it to him, Mike would slice & dice him with uppercuts, beat him to a pulp and debilitate him

Like they say, Sugar was sweet but Mike was second to none!

as much as I like Ray leonard, I only give him between 6 and 8 rounds before Mike closes the show