Could Roy Jones upset Ray Robinson?

LaMotta is a perfect example of mediocre fighter who has got some accomplishments. And please, spare me of your stories about pretending to be hurt as a proof of cleverness, or rolling with some punches as a sign of defense (but still getting hit with half the punches thrown at him). The rest were not much better than him where skills and clererness were concerned.
Most people don't have much knowledge about that epoch, and are aware of maybe 5-10 fights at best of each fighter I mentioned, and having seen a fight or two of each. They can only repeat what has been put in their heads by so-called "experts", who have little idea about modern boxing and who are mostly thinking the farther in time the better the fighter. And those who actually have seen the old-timers and read the reports, have little idea about the fighters Jones fought, to the point of being unable to describe the style and strong or weak points of each. Sorry, but polls don't work that way, you will get 90% answers from people lacking the knowledge to judge and compare objectively, and who will start same old stories about "look at their records, they cannot be not great with such records" and bull**** like that.

As for Ray being ring-worn, what you are trying to say that he struggled at welterweight and jr. middleweight so much that he was ring-worn? Well, tell me 5 hardest fights (in your opinion) Robinson had during 1940-1950 (before St. Valentine's massacre)?

Getting knocked down hard once (as you should be aware it was a knockdown, and TKO stoppage, not a 10 and out count) and knocked out cold one more time by two best light-heavyweights in the world beside himself (both of whom are at least as good as anyone Robinson beat at 160lb) at 35 years of age, like I said, is less inglorious than getting outpointed in all 10 rounds by one nobody and barely winning by split decision over another tomato can. I certainly can't imagine Jones being outpointed in all rounds of the fight by somebody like, say Omar Sheika, and barely winning over someone from 2nd hundred of boxrec's 175lb ratings.

 

Why don't we make a thread where we ask two questions:

Have you seen the following fights (highlights or complete):
1949-06-16 Jake LaMotta - Marcel Cerdan
1950-09-13 Jake LaMotta - Laurent Dauthuille
1951-02-14 Sugar Ray Robinson - Jake LaMotta
1952-03-05 Jake LaMotta - Gene Hairston
1952-04-09 Jake LaMotta - Norman Hayes
1952-05-21 Jake LaMotta - Gene Hairston
1952-06-11 Jake LaMotta - Bob Murphy
1954-04-14 Billy Kilgore - Jake LaMotta

and so on for each of the other fight that has a film of the above fighters? And see how many 'yes' we are going to receive.

And another question - "Clippings of which fights of the following fighters do you own and have read?" - with a list of those boxers. With a note "no comments at boxrec site records are considered to be clippings". And see what answers we are going to receive. This may sound presumptuous, but I have some observations about the subject, not just on this forum, but other forums as well. 1 out of 10 knowledgable poster sounds about right, the rest mostly go by what is available on boxrec, or by what they have been told by other people (not meaning the authors of the fight reports in contemporary newspapers).

You do have your own opinion, and I don't doubt your knowledge, but I do doubt your objectivity in this case, as you have yourself admitted you have a like for 1940-60's fighters. I have between 4000 and 4500 fights myself, including a lot of old fights, but don't have particular choices for epoch. Plus I have collected over 50 thousands of boxing-related clippings, from my searches for this or that information.

I never said they were unskilled, mediocre brutes from the prehistoric era, I said they have mediocre skills, and are showing nothing special in cleverness and talent departments, that I haven't seen hundreds of other fighters doing. They don't stand out much in anything. When I'm looking at, say Kid Gavilan, or Joey Giardello, I see special fighters, who are giving wonderful performance of science and talent, instead of "I can overcome my limitations with my toughness, aggressiveness, awkwardness and recalcitrancy" approach, there have been lots and lots of fighters like that in boxing history.

I repeat my question, which fights of pre-1951 Robinson were hard, bruising affairs you are speaking of, which supposedly made him ring-weary? Can you list 5-10 bouts like that?
Even though I'm critical about Robinson's in-fighting abilities and to a degree his defensive skills, but that didn't play very big role in his run from lightweight to jr. middleweight, because he was such a beautiful offensive fighter, and had great footwork to avoid the troubles more often than not.

I never said Tarver or Johnson were great, but I don't see those middleweights Robinson was fighting as being great either, put them into Monzon's, Hagler's or Hopkins' era, and they would be mere contenders or titlists only for a short time (before they met those three realy great and special middleweights).
Have you seen Sheika-Johnson fight or have the next-day report of it, or you are going by what boxrec lists? I never said Omar Sheika or Ralph Jones were tomato-cans, I used word "nobody", which is above tomato-can level in my "dictionary", an average fighter nobody really remembers or cares about, except for die-hard fans/experts or people who have seen his fights and/or met personally. Robinson was 8-1 favorite to defeat Ralph Jones, but as usual, he had troubles with a pressure fighter. Lombardo used the same aggressive strategy.
A quote by Arthur Daley, from NY Times editorial: "A ring nonentity named Tiger Jones, a journeyman performer at best, took a unanimous decision from the former champion and deglamorized him utterly."

I'm not going that far as Robinson after his last attempt at the title, all that, after he was 40 years old, is pretty useless to analyze or make any conclusions from his performances at the very end of his career.

 

A lot of people only have a general view about the fighters of the past. For example, I heard people saying that Gans was vulnerable to pressure fighters, or that Leonard was merely a cutie who could only fight on the outside and who couldn't punch. The people who are saying this, I instantly know they haven't done much if any research of these fighters, and are going merely by what they have read or heard from secondary or third-rate sources (people retelling secondary sources with their own words). I was like this myself before I actually took time to research them some. That's why I'd like to know the basis of the judgement of each person who would participate in a poll about the aforementioned middleweights.

I doubt you have studied any of your 1940-60's fighters as much as I have studied RJJ, both in breadth and depth.

I thought it was clear that I was discussing relative comparison of skills / cleverness / talent. I explicitly said I'm not going to discuss their achievements, they might have been very good for their epoch, but in absolute comparison they are a lot less special to me.

Have you read reports of 1st, 3rd and 4th LaMotta fight, that you are listing them among fights that had worn Robinson down?

Robinson mostly scored knockouts without sacrificing much of his own safety, it is only several fights where he struggled early and needed a knockout to be sure of victory. But then it can hardly be said that he took chances by moving the balance more towards offense, than defense, because he had troubles with both prior to it, or otherwise a KO wouldn't be required for him to win. Not only was he quick on feet, but he knew how to attack at different angles, plus he had a wonderful balance which helped a lot in scoring the knockouts. In his autobiography he praises himself a master of balance much superior to Joe Louis, for example, who himself was known for good balance.

I didn't mention Giardello among fighters I consider to be mediocre at skills or cleverness. First, technically Robinson met him above 160lb, and second, Giardello was a beautiful technician, in all I'd say as good as Robinson himself or even better at some parts of the game (less vulnerable to in-fighting and showing better defense, in my opinion). I'd go so far as choosing him the favorite over Monzon and Hagler, but not over Hopkins, I don't think so. Fullmer and Basilio stand no chance against prime Hopkins.

I have read the UP and AP reports of Robinson-Jones fight. One gave only the 10th round to Robinson, but still scored it 100-94 for Jones I think. They also ain't very high on Jones' abilities and wouldn't give him a chance of a win over younger Robinson. The reports also quote Robinson's words and his manager's words, plus a day or two later there was a report of Robinson contemplating his future, that he wanted to take a short rest to think about continuing his come back. As good as Robinson looked in Rindone fight (1st fight of his come-back), it is as bad that he looked vs. Jones, his timing was non-existent, his balance was completely gone, his punches couldn't hurt Jones even once, he was slow and plodding, and was on the retreat without throwing many punches. It wasn't underestimation, it wasn't over-training, he was just an old man, who faced a tough aggressive opponent, a style he really didn't like even when he was young, and against which he always struggled. His manager thought it was a terrible choice of opponent even before the fight, but Robinson insisted to go on. It was known even before the fight what could be expected from Jones.

 

Pressure fighters like La Motta, Duran, etc... are often overlooked when discussing skill. The mistake often made is that only a defensive genius like Whittaker can be skillful, or, even worse, people mistake speed, timing and co-ordination for skill. It's not the same thing.

La Motta had an awful lot of skill to get into that pocket, smother, slip and land. Yes, he had a granite chin, but the man didn't take half as many punches as has been claimed.

 

Did I discuss Duran's skills anywhere? Please, don't put Duran and LaMotta in the same sentence. On a side note, Olivares was almost as good in Duran's style as Roberto himself, also showing great skills while actively pressuring the opponent.

 

I think if they boxed in the same eara the betting odds would be very close. Jones may even be the favroite.

 

I didn't say you did.