Could Sonny Liston have made it undefeated vs Louis title defenses?

That's it! I've never actually watched a fight.

Here is a technical question for you "Master".lol What did Eddie Futch spot in Ali's style that enabled Norton to have so much success with his jab?

 

Watching a fight and actually knowing what's going on in the fight are two different things. You clearly don't know what's going on same with a lot of popular talking heads from your era.

That's easy, Eddie Futch noticed Ali didn’t keep his right hand in position when he jabbed, he’d hold it out to the side and rely on leaning back to avoid counters, instead of blocking or parrying incoming jabs. Futch told Norton to jab with Ali, timing his jab to land simultaneously, which exploited Ali’s habit. It was exactly why Norton’s jab disrupted Ali’s rhythm so effectively and why Futch believed any disciplined jabber could give Ali trouble(something I literally brought up multiple times but of course you ignored it).

 

Correct,maybe it's just your smugness I don't like?

 

Hi Buddy.
I would like to offer my thoughts on your to and fro with mcvey and the Ali - Frazier fight of 71, you say how would being slightly faster solve the flaws that Frazier exploited, well I would say that if he was faster, there would be no flaw to exploit ! the fact that he stayed close to the ropes enabled Frazier to bombard him with body blows thus slowing Ali down, and that would lead to more punishment, and a greater points deficit for Ali to makeup, of course you are free to disagree as is your wont, as a sidebar, why are you so disrespectful to him, he is an elder statesman, who has been on the forum for a very long while, and as such warrants a modicum of respect, as I am also an old fossil, feel free to dismiss me and my comments out of hand.
that said, stay safe buddy, chat soon.
Mike.

 

Mate,you've got to improve your reading skills.I did say Ali wouldn't need to stop Smokin' Joe.Slightly faster ? What ? Ali just couldn't keep up the pace of his pre-banishment days.
That's blatantly obvious.Overall Ali's decline in speed was considerable.
'' Slightly faster '' ? Ali was a helluva lot faster over the distance. Gimme strength !
So when did Ali ever lose because he got stuck on the ropes when he was in his prime ?
Why on earth are you coming out with this nonsense ?

 

Ditto friend !

 

Well said Mike.

 

Even Cus D’Amato understood and believed that, after the 3.5 exile, Ali could not return to what he once was……

…..and, for the FOTC, Ali still hadn’t even tuned himself up to his full second career potential, all be that potential diminished as compared to the 1960s version.

Like 71 Ali hadn’t lost his inexhaustible stamina and incredible, persistent leg mobility? That’s outright denial rather than fair, objective observation.

Ali most certainly did give Joe an awful going over for the first 4 rounds or so before clearly beginning to tire within himself.

60s Ali would be far from tiring at that point and the going over he was giving Joe would simply continue for a good many rounds thereafter.

 

I see your point in theory, but I believe the evidence from his career tells a different story. The vulnerabilities that Frazier exploited weren't new; they were present even in Ali's athletic prime. For instance, he was always susceptible to a strong left hook, as Henry Cooper demonstrated. He also had a tendency to get caught on the ropes, which we saw in his fights against Chuvalo, Liston, and even Terrell.

The difference is that no one before Frazier was skilled enough to capitalize on those tendencies for a full fight. The Joe Frazier from the "Fight of the Century" was arguably the perfect fighter to exploit those specific habits. Given this history, I don't see how a marginal increase in speed would have fundamentally erased the flaws Ali always possessed.

As for why you perceive me as "disrespectful," my respect in a debate is for the argument, not the person's age or tenure. In my interactions with Mcvey, I've found that when he's faced with contradictions, he tends to pivot rather than address them directly. I find it difficult to engage respectfully with arguments that aren't made in good faith.

 

You're asking the wrong question. It shouldn't be "When did Ali lose on the ropes in his prime?" It should be: "When did Ali face anyone in his prime with the skill and relentless pressure to punish him for it?"

The answer is he hadn't, until he met Joe Frazier. The first time he faced a fighter who could consistently trap him and make him pay, he lost. This proves my point precisely: The flaw of lingering on the ropes was always there. It didn't magically appear because he was slower, Frazier was simply the first opponent good enough to exploit it.

 

Yes!

 

Hi Buddy.
Thanks for the prompt and respectful reply, you make some valid points, and lay them out in a way that suggests you know of which you speak, which judging by some of your previous posts is self evident, I have have always given your posts the time of day with that in mind, it's just that you come across as a tad belligerent sometimes, not to myself I would add, you may be right about mcvey " pivoting " that's up for conjecta, even so I would like all us posters to have, and give politeness and consideration to a fellow poster regardless of how we perceive them as a person, or their point of view and or stance, but you are fully entitled to say what you want and how you feel about whomever you choose, that is your prerogative and you are free to air it as is your desire.
stay safe buddy, chat soon.
Mike.

 

No,unfortunately you simply,stubbornly refuse to acknowledge the blatantly obvious.Muhammad Ali was
phenomenally resistant to body punches.Look as I said earlier I am a far bigger fan of Joe Frazier than I am of
Ali, and I do regard Joe's victory over Ali as possibly the finest in boxing history.
However if you look at their first fight the result was on a knife edge until Frazier decked Ali in the 15th round.
Just one more tune-up fight before FOTC and Ali would almost certainly have defeated Smokin'Joe
This is not speculation or ' fanboyism ' but just sheer common sense.

 

Just a heads up Mac, whenever I post I always wear my Magneto Helmet (very cheap from Amazon, btw) to protect myself from any Professor X wannabes out there. If you don’t have one, a makeshift hat made from aluminium foil will do nicely in the interim.