Could Sonny Liston have made it undefeated vs Louis title defenses?

mcvey · Jun 14, 2025

Mike Cannon said: ↑

Hi Buddy.
I would like to offer my thoughts on your to and fro with mcvey and the Ali - Frazier fight of 71, you say how would being slightly faster solve the flaws that Frazier exploited, well I would say that if he was faster, there would be no flaw to exploit ! the fact that he stayed close to the ropes enabled Frazier to bombard him with body blows thus slowing Ali down, and that would lead to more punishment, and a greater points deficit for Ali to makeup, of course you are free to disagree as is your wont, as a sidebar, why are you so disrespectful to him, he is an elder statesman, who has been on the forum for a very long while, and as such warrants a modicum of respect, as I am also an old fossil, feel free to dismiss me and my comments out of hand.
that said, stay safe buddy, chat soon.
Mike.
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Respect is optional,but I do find him unnecessarily sarcastic and condescending. He reminds me of Klompton.

mcvey · Jun 14, 2025

Pugguy said: ↑

Just a heads up Mac, whenever I post I always wear my Magneto Helmet (very cheap from Amazon, btw) to protect myself from any Professor X wannabes out there. If you don’t have one, a makeshift hat made from aluminium foil will do nicely in the interim.
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Thanks for the heads up P ,a senile old geezer like me needs all the protection he can get!

mcvey · Jun 14, 2025

themaster458 said: ↑

Watching a fight and actually knowing what's going on in the fight are two different things. You clearly don't know what's going on same with a lot of popular talking heads from your era.

That's easy, Eddie Futch noticed Ali didn’t keep his right hand in position when he jabbed, he’d hold it out to the side and rely on leaning back to avoid counters, instead of blocking or parrying incoming jabs. Futch told Norton to jab with Ali, timing his jab to land simultaneously, which exploited Ali’s habit. It was exactly why Norton’s jab disrupted Ali’s rhythm so effectively and why Futch believed any disciplined jabber could give Ali trouble(something I literally brought up multiple times but of course you ignored it).
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Futch also named his three greatest heavyweights as,in no order.
Ali ,Johnson,Louis, but what would he know compared to you ?

JohnThomas1 · Jun 14, 2025

themaster458 said: ↑

You completely misinterpret what Eddie Futch said. The strategy he gave Ken Norton was not "well different" from Joe Louis's approach, it was directly inspired by it.
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Louis wouldn't be jabbing simultaneously, he'd be parrying then jabbing and Ali wouldn't be there. It was the key point of the strategy. Also, Louis wouldn't be fighting that version of Ali best for best. Again, Futch admitted even the earlier comeback Ali would have beaten Norton despite the strategy.

themaster458 said: ↑

Futch explicitly modeled Norton's game plan on the exact style he believed Louis would have employed to beat Ali. The plan was abased on two core principles:

Neutralize the Jab: Futch trained Norton to keep his right hand high to block or parry Ali's jab. Because Ali didn't protect himself with his own right hand when jabbing, this left him wide open for a counter-jab down the middle. This fundamental parry-and-counter is something at which a master technician like Louis excelled. If Norton could disrupt Ali's rhythm this way, there is no logical reason to assume the more skilled Louis could not.

Apply Pressure and Attack the Body: Futch instructed Norton to use the jab to walk Ali to the ropes and relentlessly attack the body. This exploited Ali's poor infighting and drained his stamina, the exact same principle Louis himself laid out in his plan to defeat Ali.

Futch stated that Louis possessed the "correct style to exploit Ali's fundamental flaws," and he implemented that very strategy with Norton. They aren't different plans; one is the direct application of the other.
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The style he speculated. Louis, as great as he was, had a great many problems and woes himself during his career, at times vs lesser men than Ali did. Ali would have whooped Conn in a canter - it's not even up for debate. Louis was at his best too.

The success of the jabbing strategy is, at any rate, vastly overstated. In the second fight against the best version of Ali Norton had bugger all success with jabbing. Ali was fitter and more mobile and Norton was getting pumped with jabs while having little success with his own. Ali was on the move and just not there for him. Norton's primary success was coming when he got Ali along the ropes and let his hands go. He was getting outboxed mid ring. A younger, more mobile Ali with better stamina wouldn't have been caught along the ropes near as much and would have comfortably outpointed Norton.

Norton also applied rougher more adaptable pressure than Louis would. Louis was far more methodical and didn't cut the ring off as well as Norton. On top of this Louis needed to be set to punch whilst Norton was happy to let them fly from ungainly positions. Louis' quite rigid and certainly not the most fluid, in total contrast to Ali. But again, the best Ali never fought Norton.

Futch grew up sparring Louis and tells many stories of Joe. Of course he's going to be partial to him. Eddie also stated Hearns would beat Hagler (among numerous other wrong calls) so he's hardly infallible.

themaster458 said: ↑

While Ali was not at his athletic peak in the 70s, his key technical flaws were inherent to his style throughout his career. His defensive reliance on leaning back from punches and his vulnerability to a disciplined jab were fundamental aspects of his technique, not products of age. Norton's success serves as a proof of concept, demonstrating that this flaw existed and could be exploited by the right strategy.
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The flaws are negated a lot more via youth, movement and stamina. Louis certainly had his own flaws but for some reason they aren't mentioned...i wonder why? I'm sure if a Louis vs Usyk thread comes up they will be flying around the forum everywhere

Ali's peak style is brilliantly suited to beating Louis. Lots of speed, lots of movement, enormous durability and *a great right hand lead and counter. "Proof of concept" was not vs peak Ali so the so called flaws were accentuated.

themaster458 said: ↑

You mention Norton's reach advantage over Louis, but this detail is misleading. Ali himself held only a minor 1.5-inch height and 2-inch reach advantage over Louis. More importantly, Louis consistently faced and defeated much larger opponents who had significant reach advantages, such as Max Baer and Primo Carnera. Louis's mastery of cutting off the ring and jabbing with his opponents allowed him to nullify such physical advantages. He consistently out-jabbed taller heavyweights, making a negligible reach difference against Ali a non-factor for a fighter of his skill.
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Reach is important if one thinks he's going to be countering jabs with jabs given Ali's the quicker fighter, and their foot speed isn't remotely comparable so yes, reach plays it's part.

You're throwing up Baer and Carnera as proof of Joe's mastery? In comparison to doing it vs Ali? Get out of here

themaster458 said: ↑

Once again your analysis of the Schmeling and Conn fights is historically inaccurate and fundamentally misrepresents the stylistic dynamics at play.
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Yeah right.

themaster458 said: ↑

Your comparison to the Max Schmeling fight is a flawed argument because it ignores how he won. Schmeling's victory wasn't a blueprint for any fast fighter; it was a specific, tactical masterclass. He used a patient, disciplined, counter-punching style. He feinted to draw out Louis's jab and fired a straight right hand over Louis's momentarily dropped left. This methodical approach is the polar opposite of Muhammad Ali's style, which was based on movement, volume, and reflexes, not the patient, single-shot counter-punching Schmeling employed. You also conveniently ignore the rematch. Once Louis adapted to that specific style, he annihilated Schmeling in a single round. This proves the flaw was correctable and demonstrates Louis's mastery at permanently solving stylistic puzzles.
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Do you even watch these fights? Schmeling landed truckloads of right hands that weren't counters over jabs. He could barely miss! Umpteen right leads hammered into the side of Joes face. *Ali had a brilliant right lead, lightning fast, straight and accurate. He walked foreman onto plenty of them and they'd be a constant danger for Louis. On top of this Ali had an exquisite right hand counter over the jab as Folley and Liston found out, among others.

The rematch? Schmeling was past his best when they fought the first time, how do you think he was 2 years later? This is boxing history 101. Louis did shore up the flaw somewhat but it was still there to be taken if you were sharp enough. Joe Walcott landed some great right hands on him.

themaster458 said: ↑

Your reference to Billy Conn is even more flawed. The idea that he out-boxed Louis with a jab is a myth. Conn himself knew that trading jabs with Louis, who possessed arguably the best jab in heavyweight history, would have been "suicide." Conn's actual strategy was a quick in-and-out attack, hooking off the jab and unleashing fast combos on the inside and then retreating before Louis could respond, a style completely different from Ali's outside game. It was a hit-and-run approach reliant on the speed of a natural light-heavyweight, not a strategy the larger Ali could have replicated who has never shown the ability to fight on the inside like Conn did. But you also ignore that Louis was systematically punished Conn to the body throughout the fight, weakening his legs. By the later rounds, Conn was already wobbled and fading from the accumulation of body shots before being knocked out. This fight doesn't show Louis's weakness to a mobile boxer, it shows his ability to systematically break one down with relentless pressure, bodywork, and devastating finishing power, the exact tools required to defeat an outside fighter like Ali.
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What's flawed is your ability to read. mcvey just nailed you for pretending things are said when they weren't!!! Please do show me where i claimed Conn "The idea that he out-boxed Louis with a jab is a myth." beat Louis via the bolded! You must have dreamt it.

What i said was, and i quote "If a 168-169 pound Billy Conn could outspeed, outpoint and outmaneuver peak Louis for 12 rounds (and wobble him) imagine what a faster, harder hitting more robust Muhammad Ali would do to him.". There's not even a hint of me claiming he outboxed him with a jab LOL

Louis' footwork was precise and excellent against plodders and come forward fighters but he wasn't all that at cutting the ring. He was more of a follower if anything. This is why i favor Ali. Louis was a bit static, a bit robotic, and that's good news for Ali. So is the ability to hit him with right hands. Ali well hit hard enough to bother Louis with his best right hands so that will keep Louis a bit honest. Ali would be somewhat a danger of stopping Louis too. He'd have to accumulate a lot of right hands over the course of many rounds but it's not impossible. He was a sharp puncher in the 60's. Louis would be a live one, he might get thru and hurt Ali but i don't think he'd get all the way to stopping him. It's an Ali decision for me in a fight he'd have to be careful in all the way to the final bell.

cuchulain · Jun 18, 2025

Dementia Pugulistica said: ↑

Sonny Liston: The Big Bear Who Would Have Ruled Joe Louis's Heavyweight Jungle.

Step aside from the smoke-filled mythos, the sepia-toned nostalgia, and the echo of “that guy who lost to Cassius Clay.” Let’s talk about Sonny Liston—the Big Bear, the man with the telephone pole jab, fists like anvils, and a stare that could freeze a charging bull in mid-stride. If you want to measure Liston by the yardstick of his losses to a young Muhammad Ali, you’re missing the forest for the trees. Let’s imagine how Liston would have fared against every man Joe Louis faced during his legendary heavyweight title defenses. Spoiler: Sonny goes undefeated.

First, let’s dispel the notion that Liston’s legacy begins and ends with his losses to Ali. When Liston stepped into the ring, he was widely regarded as unbeatable, a destroyer who had mowed down Floyd Patterson—twice—in the first round, and who carried a jab so powerful it could rearrange a man’s dental records. His losses to Ali were shrouded in controversy—a bum shoulder, whispers of mob involvement, and the blinding speed of a once-in-a-generation fighter. But to define Liston by those nights is to ignore the sum of his savage artistry in the ring.

And let’s not forget the cloud of uncertainty that hovered over his age. Officially, Liston claimed to be 32 when he fought Clay in 1964, but many believed he was older—possibly 34, 36, or even in his mid-40s. The truth is, no one really knew. Born into poverty with no birth certificate, Liston’s real age was a riddle, but what’s certain is that he was far from a fresh-faced contender when he faced Ali. Imagine what a prime, younger Liston—untouched by the wear and tear of a hard life—could have accomplished.

At 6’1”, 215 pounds, with an 84-inch reach, that's right, an 84 inch reach! That's Tyson Fury territory. Liston was a physical specimen, the son of a tenant farmer who knew hard labor before he knew the ring.

Raised under the iron hand of his father, Sonny’s toughness was forged in the fires of rural Arkansas and the hard streets of St. Louis. The scars from his father’s whippings were still visible decades later—a testament to the pain he endured and overcame.

The Liston jab was a weapon of war, not just a rangefinder. It was a battering ram, a telephone pole that could break bones and spirits.

Despite the myth of being a “one-track fighter,” Liston was a master of distance, timing, and intimidation. He cut off the ring with the patience of a hunter and finished with the violence of a predator.

Imagine Sonny Liston, fresh from serving in the military from 1942 to 1945—a disciplined, hardened man with the added steel of Army training. The Big Bear, now with regimented conditioning and a soldier’s focus, would be even more formidable stepping into the ring against Louis’s challengers.

Here’s how Liston would have fared, one by one, against the men who tried—and failed—to take the crown from the Brown Bomber:

Jim Braddock - Liston’s jab and power overwhelm Braddock early. Braddock’s heart can’t withstand the physicality—Liston by KO.

Tommy Farr - Farr’s durability only prolongs the inevitable. Liston’s jab and body work break him down—Liston by late stoppage.

Nathan Mann - Mann’s aggression meets Liston’s superior reach and counterpunching—Liston by mid-round KO.
Harry Thomas - Thomas’s lack of power makes him easy prey. Liston walks him down—Liston by KO.

Jack Roper - Roper’s defense is no match for Liston’s jab—Liston by early KO.

Tony Galento - Galento’s wild swings are neutralized by Liston’s reach and discipline—Liston by KO.

Bob Pastor - Pastor’s movement delays the end, but Liston’s jab is the difference—Liston by decision or late KO.

Arturo Godoy - Godoy’s crouch is met with Liston’s uppercut—Liston by KO.

Johnny Paychek - Paychek’s lack of top-tier experience shows—Liston by KO.

Al McCoy - McCoy is outgunned—Liston by KO.

Buddy Baer - Baer’s size is matched, but not his skill—Liston by KO.

Billy Conn - Conn’s speed and skill are admirable, but Liston’s jab and power are too much—Liston by KO.

Lou Nova - Nova’s toughness can’t withstand Liston’s relentless attack—Liston by KO.

Abe Simon - Simon’s size is neutralized by Liston’s jab—Liston by KO.

Buddy Baer - (rematch) Same result—Liston by KO.

Johnny Davis - Davis is outclassed—Liston by KO.

Tami Mauriello - Mauriello’s aggression is countered by Liston’s jab—Liston by KO.

Jersey Joe Walcott - Walcott’s craftiness makes it interesting, but Liston’s jab and power wear him down—Liston by late KO or decision.

Ezzard Charles - Charles’s skill makes it competitive, but Liston’s physicality is the difference—Liston by decision.
Joe Walcott - (rematch) Liston adapts and dominates—Liston by KO.

Lee Savold - Savold’s chin is tested and fails—Liston by KO.

Like Louis, Liston’s presence alone was enough to win half the battle before the opening bell.

Against men who struggled with Louis’s jab, Liston’s was even longer and heavier.

Liston’s knockout ratio and ability to finish with either hand would overwhelm most of Louis’s challengers.

Liston’s chin and toughness, honed by a brutal upbringing and a stint in the military, would see him through any rough patches.

Sonny Liston was more than a footnote in Ali’s rise. He was a force of nature, a champion forged in hardship, violence, and redemption. Against Joe Louis’s heavyweight gauntlet, Liston’s jab, power, and psychological warfare would see him emerge undefeated—a champion in any era, and a legend whose shadow looms larger than the myths that try to contain him. And let’s remember: when he lost to Ali, he may have been pushing 40 or even older, his best years behind him—yet he was still considered the most intimidating man in boxing.

“The only thing my old man ever gave me was a beating,” Liston once said. But in the ring, he gave out beatings that became legend.

So let’s remember Sonny Liston not as the man who lost to Cassius Clay, but as the Big Bear who could have ruled any jungle, any time—no matter what the birth certificate said.
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I think Louis would probably beat Liston, but it's close to a 50-50.

Liston defeats all of Louis' opponents.

And I can't imagine any universe, even an alternate one, where Conn beats Liston.

MarkusFlorez99 · Jul 5, 2025

Bump

ThatOne · Jul 5, 2025

Spreadeagle said: ↑

For goodness sake learn to read lad.I said that Muhammad Ali wasn't by any means the greatest ' pure boxer ', but the hardest heavyweight in history to defeat.This is fact,not theory nor fiction.
So the 21 year-old Ali was knocked down by Henry Cooper.Dearie me, you really have got it in for the GOAT haven't you.
So the very young Ali was knocked down by a renowned puncher and you condemn him for it ? I can't believe I'm reading this nonsense.Ali got up and won the fight for crying out loud.
So your expert eye has detected Machen's faltering arm movement as evidence of his carrying an injury into the Liston fight.
What utter rubbish ! I have watched this fight,and along with practically every other observer of this bout have detected no such thing.
Oh so according to you George Foreman,Ken Norton,Jimmy Young and Ron Lyle were mediocre.Wow,you have disagreed with just about every acclaimed boxing historian and expert who have made observations about that wonderful generation of heavyweights.
Hey,what do they know ? ( Please be aware that I am being sarcastic,in case you're not
keeping up ) .
I am a huge fan of both Lennox Lewis and Joe Louis.However your scathing condemnation of Ali for merely being knocked down by Henry Cooper but still getting up and winning is is inconsistent with your opinion this is one of the reasons why they would have beaten Ali.Let me remind you Lewis lost to Oliver McCall and Joe Louis actually lost to MaxSchmeling.
You also condemn Ali for struggling to beat Oscar Bonavena in history.( Big sigh of weariness from me ).It was only Ali's second fight after being banned from boxing for over three years,
so he was hardly in peak form.He was the only man to stop Bonavena.You do know this don't you ?
Bonavena may not have been a great technician but he was was incredibly durable.Ali actually stopping him is noteworthy to say the least.
For goodness sake take your time and think before you post your rubbish.
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He certainly earned Bonavena's respect. He told Ali, "you're a great champion" after the fight . I tend to give the actual combatants more credence.

ThatOne · Jul 5, 2025

BoxingFan2002 said: ↑

Leotis Martin, Machen, and Marshall were not great light heavyweights and were even worse heavyweights, but they did well against Liston, and Conn is better than all three.
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TBF Liston was cooked for Martin.

JohnThomas1 · Jul 5, 2025

ThatOne said: ↑

TBF Liston was cooked for Martin.
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He was burnt to a crisp.

BoxingFan2002 · Jul 6, 2025 at 4:24 AM

ThatOne said: ↑

TBF Liston was cooked for Martin.
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And so?

Martin still beat his ass, knocking him out.

Spreadeagle · Jul 6, 2025 at 6:46 AM

BoxingFan2002 said: ↑

And so?

Martin still beat his ass, knocking him out.
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And so....that was a middle-aged Liston who caused so much damage to Martin that
Leotis had to retire.

BoxingFan2002 · Jul 6, 2025 at 6:58 AM

Spreadeagle said: ↑

And so....that was a middle-aged Liston who caused so much damage to Martin that
Leotis had to retire.
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Lie, he had an injury before the Liston fight. In the Wendell Newton fight, he injured the same eye that later caused retina problems. The same would have happened, or worse, if he had fought against Frazier.

Spreadeagle said: ↑

....that was a middle-aged Liston
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And that was a fighter who started at 175 pounds, a natural LHW who was nothing more than an okayish contender.

Spreadeagle · Jul 6, 2025 at 7:09 AM

BoxingFan2002 said: ↑

Lie, he had an injury before the Liston fight. In the Wendell Newton fight, he injured the same eye that later caused retina problems. The same would have happened, or worse, if he had fought against Frazier.

And that was a fighter who started at 175 pounds, a natural LHW who was nothing more than an okayish contender.
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Hmmm....ok so no doubt you have empirical evidence that Leotis Martin had injured his
eye before his fight with Liston ?
So Leotis Martin started his career at 175 pounds ? Oh dear,oh dear.How about ATGS like Jack Dempsey
and Ezzard Charles starting their careers at around 150-160 lbs ?

OddR · Jul 6, 2025 at 7:59 AM

mcvey said: ↑

Futch also named his three greatest heavyweights as,in no order.
Ali ,Johnson,Louis, but what would he know compared to you ?
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Well Johnson would probably be shut down on here as a 2nd and probably most people here would have him top 10.

McGrain · Jul 6, 2025 at 8:04 AM

Hello.

No, he could not have. Every single clue that Liston gave us indicated that the title win was going to be something like the end of the line for him. He was an alcoholic with bad impulse control and a depressive, addictive lean.

Imagine Liston unburdened of these difficulties?

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Could Sonny Liston have made it undefeated vs Louis title defenses?

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