Could Sonny Liston have made it undefeated vs Louis title defenses?

Discussion in 'Classic Boxing Forum' started by InMemoryofJakeLamotta, Jun 8, 2025.


  1. mcvey

    mcvey VIP Member Full Member

    97,497
    28,646
    Jun 2, 2006
    Respect is optional,but I do find him unnecessarily sarcastic and condescending. He reminds me of Klompton.
     
    Spreadeagle and JohnThomas1 like this.
  2. mcvey

    mcvey VIP Member Full Member

    97,497
    28,646
    Jun 2, 2006
    Thanks for the heads up P ,a senile old geezer like me needs all the protection he can get!
     
    Spreadeagle, Pugguy and JohnThomas1 like this.
  3. mcvey

    mcvey VIP Member Full Member

    97,497
    28,646
    Jun 2, 2006
    Futch also named his three greatest heavyweights as,in no order.
    Ali ,Johnson,Louis, but what would he know compared to you ?
     
  4. JohnThomas1

    JohnThomas1 VIP Member

    52,223
    43,162
    Apr 27, 2005
    Louis wouldn't be jabbing simultaneously, he'd be parrying then jabbing and Ali wouldn't be there. It was the key point of the strategy. Also, Louis wouldn't be fighting that version of Ali best for best. Again, Futch admitted even the earlier comeback Ali would have beaten Norton despite the strategy.

    The style he speculated. Louis, as great as he was, had a great many problems and woes himself during his career, at times vs lesser men than Ali did. Ali would have whooped Conn in a canter - it's not even up for debate. Louis was at his best too.

    The success of the jabbing strategy is, at any rate, vastly overstated. In the second fight against the best version of Ali Norton had bugger all success with jabbing. Ali was fitter and more mobile and Norton was getting pumped with jabs while having little success with his own. Ali was on the move and just not there for him. Norton's primary success was coming when he got Ali along the ropes and let his hands go. He was getting outboxed mid ring. A younger, more mobile Ali with better stamina wouldn't have been caught along the ropes near as much and would have comfortably outpointed Norton.

    Norton also applied rougher more adaptable pressure than Louis would. Louis was far more methodical and didn't cut the ring off as well as Norton. On top of this Louis needed to be set to punch whilst Norton was happy to let them fly from ungainly positions. Louis' quite rigid and certainly not the most fluid, in total contrast to Ali. But again, the best Ali never fought Norton.

    Futch grew up sparring Louis and tells many stories of Joe. Of course he's going to be partial to him. Eddie also stated Hearns would beat Hagler (among numerous other wrong calls) so he's hardly infallible.

    The flaws are negated a lot more via youth, movement and stamina. Louis certainly had his own flaws but for some reason they aren't mentioned...i wonder why? I'm sure if a Louis vs Usyk thread comes up they will be flying around the forum everywhere ;)

    Ali's peak style is brilliantly suited to beating Louis. Lots of speed, lots of movement, enormous durability and *a great right hand lead and counter. "Proof of concept" was not vs peak Ali so the so called flaws were accentuated.

    Reach is important if one thinks he's going to be countering jabs with jabs given Ali's the quicker fighter, and their foot speed isn't remotely comparable so yes, reach plays it's part.

    You're throwing up Baer and Carnera as proof of Joe's mastery? In comparison to doing it vs Ali? Get out of here :lol:

    Yeah right.

    Do you even watch these fights? Schmeling landed truckloads of right hands that weren't counters over jabs. He could barely miss! Umpteen right leads hammered into the side of Joes face. *Ali had a brilliant right lead, lightning fast, straight and accurate. He walked foreman onto plenty of them and they'd be a constant danger for Louis. On top of this Ali had an exquisite right hand counter over the jab as Folley and Liston found out, among others.

    The rematch? Schmeling was past his best when they fought the first time, how do you think he was 2 years later? This is boxing history 101. Louis did shore up the flaw somewhat but it was still there to be taken if you were sharp enough. Joe Walcott landed some great right hands on him.

    What's flawed is your ability to read. mcvey just nailed you for pretending things are said when they weren't!!! Please do show me where i claimed Conn "The idea that he out-boxed Louis with a jab is a myth." beat Louis via the bolded! You must have dreamt it.

    What i said was, and i quote "If a 168-169 pound Billy Conn could outspeed, outpoint and outmaneuver peak Louis for 12 rounds (and wobble him) imagine what a faster, harder hitting more robust Muhammad Ali would do to him.". There's not even a hint of me claiming he outboxed him with a jab LOL

    Louis' footwork was precise and excellent against plodders and come forward fighters but he wasn't all that at cutting the ring. He was more of a follower if anything. This is why i favor Ali. Louis was a bit static, a bit robotic, and that's good news for Ali. So is the ability to hit him with right hands. Ali well hit hard enough to bother Louis with his best right hands so that will keep Louis a bit honest. Ali would be somewhat a danger of stopping Louis too. He'd have to accumulate a lot of right hands over the course of many rounds but it's not impossible. He was a sharp puncher in the 60's. Louis would be a live one, he might get thru and hurt Ali but i don't think he'd get all the way to stopping him. It's an Ali decision for me in a fight he'd have to be careful in all the way to the final bell.
     
    dinovelvet, ThatOne, mcvey and 3 others like this.
  5. cuchulain

    cuchulain Loyal Member Full Member

    35,772
    10,827
    Jan 6, 2007



    I think Louis would probably beat Liston, but it's close to a 50-50.

    Liston defeats all of Louis' opponents.


    And I can't imagine any universe, even an alternate one, where Conn beats Liston.
     
    Last edited: Jun 18, 2025
  6. MarkusFlorez99

    MarkusFlorez99 Boxing Junkie banned Full Member

    13,405
    15,513
    Jan 13, 2021
  7. ThatOne

    ThatOne Boxing Addict Full Member

    5,553
    7,817
    Jan 13, 2022
    He certainly earned Bonavena's respect. He told Ali, "you're a great champion" after the fight . I tend to give the actual combatants more credence.
     
    Spreadeagle likes this.
  8. ThatOne

    ThatOne Boxing Addict Full Member

    5,553
    7,817
    Jan 13, 2022
    TBF Liston was cooked for Martin.
     
  9. JohnThomas1

    JohnThomas1 VIP Member

    52,223
    43,162
    Apr 27, 2005
    He was burnt to a crisp.
     
    Spreadeagle and Greg Price99 like this.
  10. BoxingFan2002

    BoxingFan2002 Well-Known Member Full Member

    1,889
    623
    Feb 11, 2024
    And so?

    Martin still beat his ass, knocking him out.
     
  11. Spreadeagle

    Spreadeagle Active Member Full Member

    1,121
    1,456
    Feb 24, 2023
    And so....that was a middle-aged Liston who caused so much damage to Martin that
    Leotis had to retire.
     
  12. BoxingFan2002

    BoxingFan2002 Well-Known Member Full Member

    1,889
    623
    Feb 11, 2024
    Lie, he had an injury before the Liston fight. In the Wendell Newton fight, he injured the same eye that later caused retina problems. The same would have happened, or worse, if he had fought against Frazier.

    And that was a fighter who started at 175 pounds, a natural LHW who was nothing more than an okayish contender.
     
  13. Spreadeagle

    Spreadeagle Active Member Full Member

    1,121
    1,456
    Feb 24, 2023
    Hmmm....ok so no doubt you have empirical evidence that Leotis Martin had injured his
    eye before his fight with Liston ?
    So Leotis Martin started his career at 175 pounds ? Oh dear,oh dear.How about ATGS like Jack Dempsey
    and Ezzard Charles starting their careers at around 150-160 lbs ?
     
  14. OddR

    OddR Active Member Full Member

    1,485
    1,522
    Jan 8, 2025
    Well Johnson would probably be shut down on here as a 2nd and probably most people here would have him top 10.
     
  15. McGrain

    McGrain Diamond Dog Staff Member

    112,430
    46,906
    Mar 21, 2007
    Hello.

    No, he could not have. Every single clue that Liston gave us indicated that the title win was going to be something like the end of the line for him. He was an alcoholic with bad impulse control and a depressive, addictive lean.

    Imagine Liston unburdened of these difficulties?