Could Sonny Liston have made it undefeated vs Louis title defenses?

Is Martin listed in the top 50 of all time by any magazine?

Leon Spinks was an Olympic gold champion and was HW champion, Martin could not do that in amateurs and was not even a good contender, yet Ali defeated Spinks in a rematch.

Kevin McBride was twice as big as Tyson, unlike Liston, who fought against a guy 30 pounds lighter than him, so that makes Tyson greater, at least losing against someone twice as big as him, unlike Liston, who lost against an LHW.
And Tyson went to prison for a few years in the middle of his prime, unlike Liston, who spent his prime fighting.

What makes Ali better? fought, lost a fight, and won in a rematch, which Liston could not do
What makes Tyson greater: he fought and lost against a guy twice as big as him

So yeah, even at their lowest point, they were greater than Liston.

 

Nope, my statement is right, you compared Martin, a journeyman and contender, with Goats of their weight classes starting lower weight classes, but your argument is weak and here is why:
Those guys who started lower weights beat guys bigger than them and became all-time greats so lower weights make them even greater because they beat bigger guys and became goats in their weightclasses, unlike Martin, who was a smaller man but did not achieve anything, so being a smaller guy doesnt make him greater.

 

Yeah, but he won it. Martin could not see that he was also an average amateur.

 

Why are we even discussing the performances of cooked fighters? What does it add to the discussion?

 

This is a load of gibberish from you.You sneered at Leotis Martin for being a comparatively small man while
conveniently forgetting that other renowed heavyweights started their professional careers at an
even lower weight.The comparative merits of these fighters is immaterial to the point you so erroneously
tried to make.

 

Again you are peddling absolute nonsense.The Leotis Martin who defeated Sonny Liston
would definitely beaten the very raw Spinks who defeated Ali.As for McBride ? Oh come on,
Leotis Martin was not an ATG but he was much,much better than McBride.

 

Again you are trying to wriggle out of your original,very flawed argument.Why are trying to use the comparative merits of these
fighters when you placed so much emphasis on size ?

 

Achievement of fighters are important even tho they started smaller, you compared Martin with guys who started low weights, but you also compared him to guys who are goats of their weight classes and who achieved 1000 times more than Martin.

That's why I think compared Martin and saying " they started small too" , yeah but they did something and became top 3 LHWs or HWs, something Martin could only dream about.

 

Again your stupid argument was "they started small too", well that same can be said for Marty Marshall but he is still a bum, Martin is still a contender while those guys you mentioned like Dempsey and Ezz Charles were goats in their weight classes and all time greats, so you argument is again not valid.

 

Leotis Martin couldn't even beat slow poke Bonavena let alone Spinks.

As for McBride, he was also not only better than Martin but Tyson fought him as older smaller man while Liston fought Martin as older bigger man, big difference.

McBride was super heavyweight while Martin was LHW, big difference so even that Tyson loss was better achievement than Liston losing against Martin.

 

time to unwatch this thread

 

And you are still stupidly describing professional fighters as ' bums '. For crying out loud NO MAN brave
enough to step into the ring is a '' bum '' !
Back to the matter at hand- Dempsey and Charles are indeed ATGs,for once you have made a
sensible observation ( wonders will never cease ).Liston is also an ATG.
If you wish to demean Liston for losing to Leotis Martin how about Dempsey losing to Willie Meehan ?
Take a look at Ezzard Charles's last few fights and see who he lost to.
Yes even ATGS can lose to inferior fighters if the conditions are right.
I'm surprised that you have failed to grasp this.

 

For a start Tyson lost to Mcbride when he was just 29 years old.Sonny Liston was far older when he
lost to Leotis Martin.
Ooh ! So Mcbide was a superheavyweight ! That didn't stop him losing to Tomasz Adamek.Just for your
information Adamek started his career as a light-heavyweight ( after all that is rather important to you ).
McBride was also stopped in 2 rounds by some guy called Mike Mollo. You are vastly overrating McBride.

 

So Liston could not avenge his defeat against Martin ? Perhaps that has something to do
with Liston inflicting a career-ending injury on Martin !

 

Did you know Muhammad Ali did 8,014 situps in the 40 days prior to his rematch with Leon Spinks?