Could Sonny Liston have made it undefeated vs Louis title defenses?

For the time maybe just because there wasn't much competition but compared to any of the fighters I listed it was pretty lacking and again he wasn't a distance fighter he was more of mauler

 

I know how he fought.
Patterson
Folley
Machen
Williams
Mildenberger
Jones
Were all contemporaries of Terrell.

 

With respect you are making a huge leap of faith that Norton would also be able to cope with an even more gifted version of Ali .That Norton would have considerably more trouble with the
younger,more gifted version of Muhammad Ali is not speculation but rather it's cold logic.
Joe Frazier is by concensus regarded as having the greatest left-hook in heavyweight history.Yet a past prime Ali gave Joe an incredibly tough fight in FOTC and convincingly defeated Frazier
in their other two fights.In fact these fights proved that Ali could cope with even the most formidable left hooks.
You say that Joe Louis would trouble Ali with pressure and bodywork.Wasn't Joe Frazier the ultimate pressure fighter using the most brutal of body punches ? And we all know what happened between Ali and Frazier.
Ok Ray Mercer was one helluva slugger but Ali was hardly a shrinking violet when,and if,he had to brawl.
Ali just happened to possess a granite chin.However the fact that Lewis had trouble with Mercer's jab cannot be dismissed.
Ok,if you say a fight with Ali would be different to a fight with Mercer let's go with that.Ali's blinding
handspeed and accuracy would be a huge factor in such a fight.This simply cannot be dismissed.
Ernie Terrell was not the overall fighter that Lewis and the Klitschkos were,but he was very much in their company when it came to the left-jab.The ability to land with the left-jab is the main weapon that gives taller fighters an advantage.
Of course,as I have already mentioned Ernie Terrell was 6' 6''.I can't see the extra 2-4 inches of height enjoyed by Lewis and the Klitschkos being a factor in any hypothetical fight with Ali.
Wladimir is an exceptional,even a possibly great heavyweight,but do you seriously think he wouldn't have the utmost difficulty with all the tools Ali possessed ?
Are you also seriously suggesting that Holmes ( and honestly I rate Holmes extremely highly ) who had such trouble with Carl Williams and Tim Witherspoon wouldn't have had a huge problem with Ali ? Ken Norton,who of course fought both Ali and Holmes,acknowledged Holmes's greatness but he was adamant that Ali was better in so many aspects of boxing.
Fair enough the fact Ali never fought a southpaw at world-level is significant.Ali was renowned for being very adaptable.I would say it's a safe bet that he would have coped with the fact that Usyk was a southpaw.

 

Your argument overlooks the specific stylistic mechanics we have been discussing, relying instead on fighter reputations and "what-ifs." This avoids the core technical realities of these matchups.

Using Joe Frazier as a counter-argument is a misunderstanding of that rivalry. Frazier landed his legendary hook by applying his constant, bobbing-and-weaving pressure, a swarming style entirely different from that of a conventional boxer. Ali didn't solve Frazier's pressure; he survived it through sheer toughness, taking terrible punishment and hitting the canvas in the final round of their first fight. This proves that a relentless body attack was incredibly effective against him. A fighter like Joe Louis wouldn't need Frazier's swarm, his methodical, ring-cutting pressure was designed to do the same thing, drain Ali's legs and break him down, a task proven possible by both Frazier and Norton. The later fights are less relevant, as Frazier was past his peak after the immense punishment he took in the "Fight of the Century" and his bout with George Foreman.

Your comparison of Ernie Terrell to modern super-heavyweights also misses the mark. Terrell's "jabbing-and-holding style" was a system to clinch and maul, not a dominant weapon to control a fight from the outside. A fighter like Lennox Lewis, by contrast, used the jab as a battering ram to establish distance and set up power shots. This brings us to the crucial point you're avoiding, physics. Ali's entire defensive system was built on leaning back from the waist. Against an opponent 3-4 inches taller with a significant reach advantage, that movement places his head directly into the path of their right hand. It’s a geometric problem his style was never designed to solve.

Every great fighter has tough nights, but Holmes having close fights with Williams or Witherspoon doesn't negate his defining asset: arguably the single greatest jab in heavyweight history. That jab is the perfect tool to exploit Ali's most evident technical flaw. Ken Norton's personal opinion of Ali is respectful, but his fights are the data that matters. They provide the technical proof that a disciplined jab disrupts Ali's entire game5. Believing a prime Ali would handle that strategy "with ease" requires ignoring this evidence.

Finally, dismissing the southpaw issue as speculation is a critical error. Ali's legendary reflexes and defensive "radar" were calibrated almost exclusively against orthodox fighters. An elite southpaw like Oleksandr Usyk presents entirely different angles and neutralizes the lead-hand battle that Ali used to set up his entire offense. To assume Ali's genius would seamlessly translate to a high-level puzzle he never had to solve is pure speculation especially since he never showed he could solve other puzzles like Norton. The absence of evidence is not evidence of success.

 

Six years isn't 12 years.

Joe Louis reigned for nearly 12 years. What year in Sonny's career does Liston have to beat Braddock, fight everyone Joe did, reign as long as Joe did and finish with two wins over Walcott?

If he was shot by 1969, then he'd have to win the title in 1956 to still be good in 1968.

Liston only had one fight in 1956 and didn't even score a KO.

 

It makes him a better H2H win then a one armed Machen, Machen is not preparation for Conn, Conn took Louis to the edge, Liston was dispatched easily by the only great fighter he met.

 

I think Ali would find it easier to land on Louis ,than he did Frazier.

 

You keep repeating this "one armed "stuff.I don't buy it.I see no evidence on the film that Machen was injured.

Which great heavies did Conn beat?
Which heavies as good as
Baker
Jackson
DeJohn
Valdes x2
Maxim x2
Jones
Did he beat ?

 

Couldn't care less we've already been over this. Conn is the better boxer then Machen we agree and that's the bottom line, I am not here to argue about HW resumes it's a H2H thing and in that respect Eddie Machen is a 2nd rater. If you don't see him as injured it would just mean he fought in a limited one handed way against Liston, fine so be it he just had a low fight IQ instead in your world.

 

Not like he struggled much Ali landed 27% of his power punches on Frazier in the FOTC. Louis was much harder to hit clean.

 

I'm unusual when some one makes a statement I think is wrong I require proof of their statement and you haven't given any.All you do is keep repeating he was one armed,and when I disagree with you,you say you couldnt care less.That isn't debating ,it's petulance.

 

Kick rocks and go passively aggressively tear down Marciano somewhere lol.

 

I disagree Louis had little head movement,and was dropped by slow punchers like
B Baer
Galento
Staggered by Brawlers like Mauriello.
Dropped by Braddock,dropped by Walcott x3, dropped by Schmeling x2.

I don't know how many power punches Ali landed on Frazier ,

but I would expect him to land more on Louis.

No we don't agree that's the bottom line.
Bivol is a better boxer than Bakole,that doesn't mean he beats him at heavyweight.
What has Marciano to do with this thread?
This is akin to," yaah boo sucks",and just as childish.

 

Let a thousand flowers bloom.

 

I think that Machen isn’t good enough evidence to suggest that Liston beats Conn or Walcott, Conn had a chin, helluva chin and proved himself against Louis he had generational skills that’s the difference. They’re just too slick with it Liston almost fouled out against Machen who had 1/2 the skill. Posting discouraging comments about Marciano has been your thing FOREVER lol im just poking fun a bit.