Could Sonny Liston have made it undefeated vs Louis title defenses?

New post idea! Who's a better all-around fighter, Bob Pastor or Sonny Liston?

 

"it's not out of the question that Walcott stops Liston." - It's heavyweight boxing, anything can happen however the 1969 Liston was still a formidable force. Even at an advanced age, Liston had won 14 straight fights (13 by knockout) after his losses to Muhammad Ali, showing he retained his power and ring craft.
Jersey Joe Walcott in 1947 was a slick, elusive operator with a tricky style and excellent footwork, but he was not yet the champion who would later dethrone Ezzard Charles. In 1947, Walcott was a top contender, known for his defense and counterpunching, but he could be outworked by aggressive, powerful fighters.

Here's how I could see an aged Sonny beating a prime Jersey Joe.

Early-Round Power and Pressure:

• Even the aging Liston retained his legendary jab and clubbing power. Against Martin, he dominated the early rounds, knocking Martin down and controlling the action with his jab and left hook. Against Walcott, Liston would use the same approach—pressing forward, cutting off the ring, and forcing Walcott to the ropes, where his size and strength would be decisive.
  
  
• Physical Strength and Ring Generalship:
  Liston’s farm-forged strength and imposing presence would be a major factor. Walcott’s style relied on movement and making opponents miss, but Liston’s jab would disrupt his rhythm and his physicality would wear Walcott down in clinches.
  
  
• Capitalizing on Knockdowns:
  Walcott was dropped by lesser punchers in his career. The Liston who floored Martin in the fourth round could certainly put Walcott down early. If Liston could score a knockdown, he’d be able to build a points lead and force Walcott to take more risks.
  
  
• Experience and Ring Savvy:
  By 1969, Liston was a seasoned pro who knew how to win rounds and manage a fight. He could use his experience to pace himself, avoid overexertion, and focus on landing the most telling blows.
  

Now as for Charles. Let's use our imaginations shall we? This'll be fun.


Let’s keep the hats on and the cigars lit, because this is a real fantasy fisticuff: the weathered, late-1969 version of Sonny Liston—gray at the temples but still a menace—against the best version of Ezzard Charles, the “Cincinnati Cobra,” a master boxer and one of the most technically gifted heavyweights of all time.

The Matchup: Aged Liston vs. Prime Charles

• Sonny Liston (1969):
  Estimated age: 37–41.
  Strengths: Heavy jab, clubbing power, imposing size, ring experience, and underrated craft.
  Weaknesses: Slower feet, diminished stamina, and less ability to cut off the ring than in his prime.
  
  
• Ezzard Charles (Prime):
  Age: 28–30.
  Strengths: Superb footwork, fast hands, defensive genius, combination punching, and high ring IQ.
  Weaknesses: Not a big puncher at heavyweight, sometimes struggled with physically imposing sluggers.
  

How Liston Could Win: The Blueprint
1. Make It a Physical Affair
The older Liston would need to turn the fight into a battle of strength and will, not a dance contest. Charles thrived at mid-range, using his speed and combinations. Liston, even at 40, was still a physical force—just ask Leotis Martin, who hit the deck before rallying late.

• Liston’s Gameplan:
  
  • Use the jab to disrupt Charles’s rhythm and keep him from getting comfortable at range.
    
    
  • Lean on Charles in clinches, using his 215+ pound frame to sap the smaller man’s legs.
    
    
  • Target the body early and often, slowing Charles’s movement and making him more hittable as rounds progress.
    

2. Fast Start, Bank Rounds
Liston’s stamina was fading by 1969, but his early-round power and aggression were still formidable. Against Martin, he dominated the first half, scoring a knockdown and winning rounds.

• Liston’s Gameplan:
• Build a lead on the scorecards in the first six rounds, knowing Charles gets stronger as the fight goes on.
• Look to land the jab and right hand, making Charles respect his power.
• Come out aggressively, forcing Charles to fight off the back foot.
• 3. Roughhouse Tactics and Ring Savvy

Liston’s experience would be his ally. He’d use every trick: mauling on the inside, holding and hitting, and making Charles uncomfortable.

• Liston’s Gameplan:
  
  • Use his forearms, shoulders, and weight to wear Charles down in clinches.
    
    
  • Cut off the ring as best as possible, forcing Charles into corners and onto the ropes, where Liston’s power is most dangerous.
    
    
  • Keep the fight at a measured pace, minimizing exchanges and maximizing control.
    

4. Limit Charles’s Offense
Charles was not a devastating puncher at heavyweight. Liston, even aged, had a reliable chin and was rarely stopped cleanly.

• Liston’s Gameplan:
  
  • Absorb Charles’s combinations, then answer back with single, heavy shots.
    
    
  • Make Charles pay for every exchange, discouraging him from letting his hands go freely.
    

Scenario: How It Plays Out

• Rounds 1–6: Liston comes out behind the jab, pressing Charles, bullying him in clinches, and landing hard body shots. Charles lands quick combinations but can’t get into a rhythm.
  
  
• Rounds 7–10: Charles adjusts, using his footwork to avoid prolonged exchanges, but Liston’s early work has slowed him. Liston continues to press, banking rounds on aggression and ring generalship.
  
  
• Rounds 11–12: Charles rallies, but Liston’s physicality and early lead are enough to hold him off.
  

Keys to Victory for Liston

• Start fast and bank rounds before stamina fades.
  
  
• Use every ounce of physical strength and experience to sap Charles’s energy.
  
  
• Make it an ugly, grinding fight—less chess, more tug-of-war.
  
  
• Rely on the jab, body work, and roughhouse tactics.
  

Conclusion: Liston’s Path to Victory
The 1969 Liston, with his age and diminished stamina, would have no chance in a footrace. But in a dogfight, with smart tactics, early aggression, and the kind of farm-forged strength that never leaves a man, he could edge a decision over a prime Ezzard Charles—especially over 12 rounds, where his early work and physical dominance could outweigh Charles’s late rally.

Scenario Outcome:
Liston by close, possibly controversial decision, using early aggression, physicality, and ring craft to outpoint the brilliant but smaller Charles.

And that, fight fans, is how the old bear could still catch the cobra—if only for one last night.

So many different angles to look at when you're dealing with fantasy scenarios. "...could Liston maintain that pace for 12 years?" - I believe so. Now, Sonny Liston—ah, the Big Bear, the most intimidating man to ever lace up gloves—entered the professional ranks in 1953 and fought until 1970, a 17-year span. But here’s where the plot thickens: Liston’s true age was a riddle wrapped in an enigma, with whispers he may have been well into his 40s when he was flattening Floyd Patterson and scaring the wits out of the heavyweight division. Some say he started boxing as a teenager under another name, which would put him at 45 when he won the title—making his longevity all the more impressive.

 

Me after entering this thread expecting a nice discussion of Sonny Liston only to be surprised by another modern heavyweight vs Ali argument:

 

I think Ezzard Charles gives Liston huge problems. He had the combination of speed, footwork, skill, experience, and just enough pop to get respect. But it doesn't even get that far, because Liston takes a dive long before then.

 

No. Liston despite his talent was never as disciplined as Louis was and he didn't have the patience that Louis did in the ring, which I could see costing him against tricky and seasoned opponents like Pastor, Conn, Walcott, Godoy, Farr, etc...

Another problem is Liston once he was champion didn't have as good a team as Louis did.

 

https://vault.si.com/vault/1964/02/10/the-four-who-baffled-liston
In this article is states that Marshall knocked Liston down in the rematch.

 

I don't even think Louis could do it.

 

Incorrectly. I mean, have a look at the ridiculous bias in that article. It's been carved up in here many times. chok lived by it.

 

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Marshall the 7th ranked LHVY with 27 fights under his belt won a split decision over Liston who was having his 7th fight.Liston was fighting under the handicap of a broken jaw
Did Well? Won a split dec against a 6 fight novice who , fighting with a broken jaw floored him!
If Liston' s jaw was not broken, who wins?

"Marshall down once in the 1st round. Liston suffered a possible broken jaw early in the bout."
Seven months later ,with his jaw healed Liston beat the **** out of Marshall.
"Marshall was down 4 times; for a 9-count at the end of round 5, and three times in round six."

Did Well? Marshall was floored 4 times in the less than 6 rounds the fight lasted .
They met for a third time.
"Marshall, a last minute substitute for Harold Johnson, lost all but the first round and it was even. Johnson hurt his shoulder while training for the bout. (UP) From the Pittsburgh Post-Gazette- "Liston apparently planned to coast through the bout, and (Referee) McTiernan warned him twice to get in there and fight." Liston had Marshall on the verge of a knockout on several occasions, but the safety-minded Detroit fighter found a way to survive."
Did Well?
Ran all night and never won a single round.
The Machen fight
"There was no doubt about the decision, however. Judges Ely Caston and Sam Haller favored Liston 118-114 and 118-116, respectively. Referee Whitey Domstad scored it 119-112 for the winner and UPI agreed 115-113. The victory for Liston, who was penalized twice for low blows was his 31st in 32 professional fights. For Machen, the loss was his third in 38 trips to the post."
"All Machen wanted to do was go 12 rounds," he said. "He didn't want to fight. " Liston.
Did Well? Yeah, he went the distance!

• "Liston knocked Martin on the seat of his trunks at 2:11 of the fourth round with a left hook to the jaw. He was up quickly and didn't appear badly hurt.
• Martin, behind on points, knocked out Liston at 1:08 of the ninth round. He hurt Liston with a vicious right and followed up with a left hook and another right."

Did Well?
Yes he did, he came from behind surviving a kd to ko a tiring Liston whose age will always be a mystery.
Conn's standing as a heavyweight rests on his performance against a dried out Louis in their first fight,a fight in which Conn was brutally ko'd!

 

Yes I've read that crap, it says the 4 who baffled Liston,now read the reports of those fights and tell me who was baffled?

Marshall's claim that he knocked down Liston is not supported by the contemporary newspapers of the day. To answer the question of whether Liston could beat all Louis challengers ,the answer is yes.imo.

Would he ? Probably not,he lacked the discipline and support around him to do so.

 

Where did you get the information that it was marshall that claimed that he dropped Liston? And besides if marshall could break his jaw I don't find it that unlikely he could knock Liston down. If anything. It shows that Liston could get off the canvas to win a fight. It's not like it's the first time a granite chinned fighter got dropped by a guy that they shouldn't be getting dropped by. Dick tiger was dropped by Emile Griffith. Yet no one would call Tiger China chinned unless your bob Foster.

 

However, a smaller man beat a 35-pound heavier man, and Marshall was not even a good journeyman; it was Marshall who cracked Liston's jaw, so it was not an easy time for Liston.

Was Liston able to KO Marshall because I dont think so since Marshall beat him and Liston was not able to KO him in their third meeting, Marshall even predicted that Ali would win.

Lie, Liston could not fight a boxer who was good at neutralizing his power like Machen was, plus he cheated with using illegal substances on his Gloves against Machen.
When Liston was offered a rematch with Machen, he declined the offer since Machen was a hard fight against a fighter who was not scared from him and could neutralise his power.
Even tho Liston cheated and Machen was a smaller man, Liston was not able to beat him easy, especially for public eyes.

Also LHW contender who started amateur fights as MW, was natural 175 pounder and was able to KO Liston with easy one two combo.