Could the 89 version of Duran pull off a shock win over 87 Hagler ?

This is an interesting matchup. Both had seen better days, and this would be a rematch of two greats who had went the distance in their first encounter and would have a good idea of what to expect in the rematch.

The Hagler of '87 was slowing down and the mileage was showing. Still, I believe he was overconfident against SRL and underestimated him, believing that he could take him out any time he wanted to. He gave away the first four rounds of a twelve-rounder boxing orthodox and when Leonard didn't fold found himself in a real catch-up situation. He fought back, closing the gap but not enough. Certainly not a good showing for Hagler, but I believe if he had been more motivated and less complacent with Leonard his hand would have been raised in victory.

Against the hypothetical '89 Duran, I believe Hagler would not have underestimated him. He would know that Duran was cagey, durable, and capable of giving him a competitive fight over the distance. He would also know that just when it seemed that Duran was washed up he could come back with a surprise victory to recapture some of the old glory. For Duran I believe Hagler would find the motivation he needed to take him to another UD.

 

Comparing Hagler (Or Barkley for that matter) to Sugar Ray doesn't really make sense. SRL beats Duran with movement. Anytime he wants to. But Duran does much better against those willing to oblige the short armed fighter in a war. Barkley did because it's what Barkley does. Hagler both boxed and fought and Duran was able to give a damn good account of himself against a younger ATG middleweight. But Ray had no need to do such a thing.
He was faster taller and aside from the first fight with Duran showed a great ring IQ.

If Ray is determined not to be caught he isn't going to be by an older smaller Duran.
With Hagler and Barkley the fight hadn't really started until they were caught.

 

The thing is Hagler even in old age is an infinitely better boxer than Barkley.

Duran wasn't suddenly magical again. Yes he was highly motivated going for a title but Barkley was very limited and quite one dimensional. The Barkley match was razor close and even the Hagler of 87 has a lot more in his treasure chest than Barkley.

There's every chance SRL made Hagler look a bit slower and more painful than he actually was. Leonard was extremely sharp.

Hagler in the 83 match hung off far too much, gave him too much respect. He got a bit cross eyed given it was his first superfight and Duran and experience took advantage of this but he was never ever looking like the winner at any stage of the fight. Hagler didn't impose his size enough and the times they battled inside Hagler had the best of it. Duran fought a bit of a spoiling fight on the outside but he was never in control.

Hagler was mixing it up a bit more late career but this wouldn't be to Duran's advantage for mine.

Your point on not comparing Leonard to Hagler is apt because it works from another angle. SRL beating Hagler does not necessarily open things up for Duran because Duran is nothing like SRL and lacks his sheer speed and movement. Duran would not be able to outspeed or outslick Hagler - he'd have to fight him.

 

I see where you are coming from but remember that Duran didn't exactly outslick Barkley either. There were significant exchanges in every minute of the fight. Duran got caught with a left hook that damn near spun him around. I would argue that Duran had gained some skills in 88' that he did not really have in earlier fights.

He's lost a step speed wise but his timing improved. He became a better counter puncher. I'd say stylistically he became a better match up as time past. Add the wear and tear on Hagler at that point i'd give him 50-50 with mild conviction.

 

I don't think it was motivation that effected Hagler so much as time past and he got older. He fought wars but he relied on his chin to get him through. Sometimes his chin was the only thing that kept him in the fight. Add to that Hagler's work ethic was unreal. He always showed up in tip top shape, like Marciano. I don't think Hagler was taking any short cuts on training.

He was starting to wear out.

 

I am not convinced Duran gained some skills in 88 sorry. He peaked about a decade earlier and was an extremely well rounded war machine at that time.

If Hagler put the pedal to the metal i think he might have stopped Duran. At one point in the mid rounds he had him wilting but surprisingly eased back.

I'd be very confident Hagler would repel him. Hagler was declining for sure but Duran was almost 38 and had been around longer and had more fights than Hagler. Duran hadn't beat anyone of significance for 5 years when he fought Iran and at the end of the day Barkley is tough but not all that. Duran didn't beat anyone post Barkley either. I have no doubt that 87 Hagler would have pumped him tho he'd likely brawl a bit.

I'm not trying to take away from Duran's achievement but i am keeping a level head imo.

Respect your opinion tho even if we disagree.

 

During Round-8 of Hagler/Duran, Al Bernstein was asked by (I think) Sal Marchiano, how it was that Hagler had been able to “avail his will over [Duran]”.

Bernstein’s response was, “…I think Hagler has done so; more out of technical abilities than anything else. He is simply a better boxer than Duran has faced in recent times.”

He would go on to suggest, as the fight had just completed, that “”for Marvin Hagler, the last two rounds, fourteen and fifteen were a clinic for boxing fans.”

I believe Bernstein had read and articulated the fight quite precisely.

 

Hagler by the SRL fight came around was ripe for the taking. Former WBA
Champion Ric Sandoval saw the signs of Hagler fading and was so worried
about Hagler performance in training camp that he asked Bob Arum can
SRL even fight one bit. Duran still had one big fight left him in 89.
Duran on pts.

 

Fair call. I don't think Hagler's size advantage overly hurt him too. Lets be honest tho Hagler was a bit better boxer than Moore or a faded Cuevas, absolutely. He was a good technical fighter Hagler which gets forgotten due to the Hearns brawl. You often see comments that if Hagler comes out like he did against Hearns etc but that wasn't Hagler excepting that one fight and he traded a bit more vs Mugabi as he slowed.

Hagler went out with the intent to win those last two rounds as team Hagler were a little bit worried about getting shafted. Turns out their worries were well founded. I think it shows that if Hagler needed to win certain rounds over Duran he could.

 

Agreed. The size advantage couldn't have hurt (I'm just not sure how much Hagler actually used it to his advantage...).

Combine this with the fact not one of his seven defenses, prior to Duran, had gone the distance (or even into the championship rounds) and there was perhaps an anticipation of something more destructive from Hagler. It didn't come, other than in the form of Hagler taking control, seemingly, whenever he wanted.

Your point about the Hearns and Mugabi matches are right on the button and, ironically, these are the bouts that had finally given Hagler the scale of 'recognition' he'd been seeking. Again, however, centered on toughness rather than technical ability.

Strange to think that, had Hagler taken his foot off the gas in rounds 14 and 15, it might have cost him the bout. I remember Hagler in the post-fight interview implying his lack of faith in the judges scoring and that he knew he had to finish strongly. The last two rounds effectively won him the fight, which still appears odd to me when I re-watch it, on occasion.

For Duran's part, he had proven that his special brand of sophisticated savagery could underpin his competitiveness (if not mastery) at Middleweight. He'd just happened upon a very special Middleweight in '83. This, despite the varying views on why Hagler approached the bout the way he did (which, I feel, make it an especially intriguing fight).

 

Excellent read.

 

Leonard ran in that match whereas Hagler would be coming towards Duran like Barkley did, Ray was awful against Duran in the third fight, the writing was on the wall.

 

Leonard punched plenty enough to win a decision tho. It was a boxing clinic. Ray was awful against Duran in the third fight but still basically shut him out.

Hagler would mix it a lot more than Ray for sure. Hagler's still miles above Iran even at this stage tho.

 

It was all about the payday for duran.the $13mill ray gave him threw all supposed hate and hunger to push himself out of the window.

Still he got the satisfaction of being comprehensively shut out yet emerging without a bruise and landing two punches all night but somehow leaving rays face a bloody pulpy mess in several places...

Your post does rather steamroll the duran wagon.... Ray beat hagler by a thin hair but shut roberto out....styles make fights i guess...i still think duran 89 and hagler 87 is a magnificen fight...and duran shades it

 

I see the bolded as the normal leeway Duran gets (and often claims himself) when he loses Jamal. Not addressing you personally but it's the usual Duran fare. He wins a big fight so is motivated and at his best, inspired even. He loses a big fight so he is undertrained, flabby, needs a poop, was 300 pounds a week prior etc.

The bottom line is that up in the weights Duran could not handle speed and movement. Stand in front of him and he is still a superb operator. Put him against speed and movement however and the Duran who fought gallantly against Barkley is suddenly hitting air.

I respect that your opinion in picking Duran. When i look at it tho i seen a Duran who is older than Hagler and quite shopworn himself with Hagler being the naturally bigger and stronger man and more suited to the weight.

Many say well Hagler would be right in front of Duran, he'd fight him as he no longer had the slickness and was trading more. The bigger picture tho is that when we look back at their initial encounter Hagler was beating Duran on the inside decisively. This was unexpected at the time even given the size difference and it's a key component for this fantasy match imo.