Could The Best Of Lennox Beat The Best Of Joe Frazier?

Big Bus all day. Mathis bigger, quicker, more mobile. He's too modern for McCall or Rahman with their old fashioned plodding styles. HBO would bring in its compubox to show how many jabs Bus landed. Its all about being modern. Thats what wins fights.

 

You've missed his point entirely tho you seem to have followed.

He said "P.S. Ruddock, Tua, and Tyson all packed a bigger left hook than Frazier. I wouldn't rule out Butler, Morrison, or Briggs either."

Tho you completely misquoted his actual words your interpretation was perfect when you said "The fact that you even stated that you and I quote "wouldn't rule out LIONEL BUTLER as having a more powerful left hook then Fraxier ".

He was strictly (and only) talking about power. Resume and results don't contradict what he actually stated. We all know Frazier has one of the "greatest left hooks in the history of the heavyweight division". I'd be happy to accept it as the greatest because of the way he utilized it, it's effectiveness and a myriad of other reasons. Maybe it's the best hook in any division, ever.

It's not however close to the hardest most powerful hook ever. I say this even while thinking it's actual power has perhaps become somewhat underrated.

As for Frazier knocking down Ali - this was late in one of the most grueling battles of all time. How many hooks had Frazier hammered Ali with by that point? He had him in at least as much trouble earlier even if he stated upright. Shavers and Foreman didn't knock down Ali, would this mean they don't hit as hard? Not likely.

You state "Fraziers beat down world class boxers time and time again with the hook being his money punch". It's there in your own words - "beat down". Rarely was he pole axing them with single blows or very few, he was often accumulating the damage until they couldn't take anymore.

What a drug afflicted Butler achieved has literally nothing to do with his power comparative to Joe. The guy had huge power. Who did Cyclone Hart ever KO? Everyone knows he packed IMMENSE power.

I'd be hugely shocked if there hasn't been guys out there over the decades who had more power in the hook than Frazier and never even made the top 10. There's been an unlimited amount of monster punchers over the decades that never did much of anything with it. butler is certainly one of them from all accounts.

 

Lewis due to his style wouldn't need to deal with a Frazier pinned to his chest for 3 mins though. Lewis was far better at controlling distance than anyone Frazier fought even Foreman and Ali.

Even if Frazier gets past the lead hand which he no doubt will at some points, Lewis just does what Foreman did, control his head to control Frazier's position via framing, collar ties etc. Frazier wouldn't get many opportunities to get up close and when he does he's manhandled out of position forcing him to reset over and over again meaning he's unable to unload with his usual work rate. You have to be in position to throw and with Lewis movement on the outside and his ability to control Frazier's position on the inside his offence will be greatly diminished.

And it's not about how much stronger Lewis is compared to Foreman, it's about techniques being used. How did the smaller Holyfield push Tyson around so easily, especially with Tyson having the lower centre of gravity. Answer technique differences. Tyson squares up, making him easy to push back.

Frazier's head movement was great but by controlling his head position you can control the rest of his body because where the head goes the body follows as you are only as strong as your weakest point, this is why head control is so important and why strength isn't a factor as important as you think. Hence why the smaller Lewis was able to manhandle the bigger and probably stronger Michael Grant.

 

Joe Frazier was awfully strong too and he would have leverage coming in low vs Lewis leaning on his back foot. Frazier would consistently score to the body, solid shots. Frazier's hook to the head would carry enough power to keep Lennox in chess mode. Sure Lennox will fight intelligently tying Joe up but be expending more energy himself. Joe doesn't let you rest in there. At his peak he was an absolute terror.

 

Lewis was not prime when he lost to Mccall and he completely destroyed Rahman in the immediate rematch

 

Ok maybe not prime but was certainly approaching that and agreed he destroyed Rathman but that doesn`t take away the loss.This is the reason i cant rate Lewis in the top 7 heavyweights. Ali never lost before his enforced lay off,theres the difference

 

Then Frazier counts as prime for the Foreman fight.

 

You can rate him whatever but H2H is a different story, imo he'd manhandle and pummel Frazier. The uppercut would be the punch that changes the fight. Styles make fights. Lewis would not be trying to outbox Frazier all night he would be trying to rough him up, use his 245lb jab as a battering ram and bomb him out due to Frazier being a slow starter. Lewis would also be a herculean sized beast compared to Frazier. The size difference alone would play a part

 

This is a good argument, but I just don't think Lewis could keep Frazier off him for long. The uppercut might floor him, but sooner or later Frazier is going to get in there.

Just my opinion.

 

Yes he did destroy Rahman in the rematch but he never should’ve been ko’d by him in the first place which many people seem to be glossing over in this thread. It puts a huge question mark next to his chin. The same people trying to make excuses for this loss, would’ve had a field day ridiculing Joe had he been ko’d by Rahman. The double standards here are insane.

 

Because the excuse holds weight. He did get KO'd but he was complacent and overconfident when it happened, thats why he outclassed Rahman in an immediate rematch. He has taken punches from bigger punchers than Rahman and Mccall like Bruno or Tua or Vitali, that's another reason that points to his losses being a focus issue, if it wasn't he would've gotten hurt and dropped a lot more

 

Imo he wouldn't need to, he'd just manhandle him and get Frazier to back up like Foreman did with maneuvers and uppercuts, because Lewis can fight like that and he did against Mike Tyson

 

The losses to both McCall and Rahman are definitely huge question-raisers, plus not being able to consummately beat a well past it and far more worn Holyfield (watching his victory over Mercer compared to old man Holmes' performance is a bit daunting as well in his estimation).

Still, pretty cool that Lewis avenged those defeats imo. He was very great...I just have trouble seeing him get past most of the other top ten ATGs. I have him at #6, after Louis, Ali, Holmes, Holyfield, and Foreman, and I just don't see him beating any of them in their primes. Same with everyone else on the list (Frazier, Tyson)...except Marciano, who I think he'd have a good chance of beating. Not sure at all he'd make it past Liston either.

 

The problem I have with this (otherwise good) assertion is that Mike was a) past it way more than Frazier was at the time of Foreman and b) Mike didn't take knockdowns the way Joe Frazier did. Even in the face of getting beat down again and again, Joe kept coming (fights were usually over not long after Mike got knocked down), plus any version of Foreman had a better chin than Lewis.

Just my opinion, and completely sympathize with your assertions, my friend.