Could Wlad be ranked as high as Joe Louis

Yes, I can see a lot of similarities. H2H it's not even close, but taking each fighter in their respective era they achieved many of the same feats. Wlad suffers a little from having his brother in the division, not that he was protected from his hardest challenges (overall he took on more dangerous and top level fighters than Vitali ever did) but that for obvious reasons he was unable to fight one of the very best fighters in the division at the time.

 

noone in the top 15 ATG list needed their brother around to win fights against nobodies for them.

 

It annoys when me defending a belt gets equalled to defending the undisputed world championship.

Wlad had nothing close to 25 defenses of the undisputed world championship. He didn't even beat the other top fighter of his era. His resume is at least a level below Louis's.

 

Nice provocative thread. The one correct answer to the question is **** NO!

 

True, Wlad included.

 

Its tempting to make wladmir a top 3 in the division. I personally have him top 5-6 usually. Hes got an ATG jab and top shelf punching power, high ring iq, and had one of the longest reigns ever defending against many guys ranked in the top 10.

My main issue are as follows:

-Wladmir has unavenged losses in what should have been his prime. Its one thing to overlook his losses to Joshua and Fury when he was 40. I cant just gloss over the one sided beat downs because it wasnt just that he lost, it was that he was barely competitive for some like sanders. Few other ATGs got demolished like that.

Louis, since hes the topic of discussion, only had one prime loss and Schmeling had to throw everything but the kitchen sink at him to get the KO in the later rounds. Louis also avenged this defeat.

-wladmir worked around his weaknesses rather than improving and evolving. Even after wladmir teamed up with stewart, his new safety first jab, smother, potshot strategy was highly effective but it was a bandaid hiding his flaws and making full use of his strengths. For whatever reason, he never became a good inside fighter, had mediocre defense, and always had chin and stamina issues. He also wouldnt pull the trigger until he knew the opponemt was out on their feet or gassed most of the time. A good fighter can work around their limits, a great fighter surpasses them.

Again, Louis immediately corrected his weaknesses that were exposed when he lost and became one of the most technically sound, polished boxer punchers of all time. In rematches he was brutally efficient and knew how to make adjustments.

-Wladmir was never the clear #1 of his era. Despite having more than 20 defenses and having a long undefeated streak, for whatever reason he never became undisputed and he never cleared the air on who was "the man" at heavyweight. It didnt help he had an older brother who was not only an active belt holder for much of Wladmir's reign, some people even regard Vitali as the better fighter h2h. How can Wladmir be the best of his era if theres another guy he (understandably) refuses to fight and who some regard as the better of the two? Imagine if Louis never existed and Max and Buddy Baer dominated the 30's-40's and never fought--youd never hear the end of it and critics would tear the era apart like wet tissue.

Louis' reign was so long and he was so utterly dominant and the clear #1 to the point where his competition became memes (bum of the month), and this was in spite of losing many years to the war he still has one of the craziest records in the sport. The handful of guys who gave him the most trouble, he rematched and demolished them leaving no doubt who was superior.

-Wladmir enjoyed a height and reach advantage over most opponents and refs allowed him to bend the rules. This isnt his fault, but it is a factor one must consider for p4p arguments. This combined with his illegal clinch spamming and leaning made what could have been interesting fights incredibly dull or poor displays of sportsmanship (haye, povetkin, etc).

While Louis did have some smaller opponents who would be cruiserweights today, he did beat guys of similar height or who were much taller and heavier (carnera, galento, abe simone, max and buddy baer, etc).

Overall, wladmir had an amazing career and is a force to be reckoned with h2h, but for the reasons listed above one could make an argument Holmes is still his equal or superior, let alone Louis.

 

Clearly no.And just on a sidenote, I do not count WBO defenses

 

I’m a Wlad supporter, he dominated prime competition for a decade and even for me the answer is a clear No.

H2h different story but legacy wise Louis is 1 or 2. Wlad is anywhere from 3-10 but not close to 2

 

No , and for the following reasons

Joe never tagged teamed his era with a partner/brother
Joe was never knocked out by journeymen , past prime contenders and B level contenders.
Joe was a clean boxer who never had to excessively foul to beat his opponents.
Joe never had the benefit of corrupt refs allow him fight whatever way he wanted.

Joe , like Wlad , fought a Sam Peter type opponent and like Wlad got dropped. Difference is Joe got up faster than he went down and then proceeded to batter his Sam Peter to a brutal stoppage. Wlad on the other hand got up against his Galento and proceeded to run , cower and hold on for dear life for the rest of the fight.

Most importantly Joe overturned losses and disputed decisions with emphatic victories.
Maxy boy - wheelbarrowed
Jersey boy - left in a crumpled heap.

Sanders rematch - ducked
The immediate Brewster rematch - ducked
Williamson rematch - fought in the courts

A mark of a true ATG is based on how good they deliver in the immediate rematch. Wlad only took rematchs against his conquerors when they were washed up specters of their former selves.

 

ATG jab yet he was never able to keep any of the bums he fought on the end of it. Never faced a good jabber until he fought Fury and we all saw what happened there.

 

No. Joe is the #1 or #2 heavy of all time.

Wlad has 23 total defenses to Louis' 25. Louis should have more due to the war, and Wlad's first run is very light due to Lennox being the real champ.

Wlad beat some good fighters, but no universally recognized great one.

Wlad is great, Joe is much greater.

 

Great analysis. Really not much to add, expect to say first, I do think Wlad is a top 10 all time HE, and second, it is true he had huge physical advantages over his opponents, while Louis was outweighted by at least several fighters.

 

We are approaching the point in history now where those who have seen Joe Louis fight at the time are dying off.

This historically speaking will lead to him being rated less than the more recent champions.

You need to wait atleast 15 years following a fighters retirement to assess a fighters all time position accurately. So for me it’s too early to place Wlad on these lists.

One thing for sure is that Louis is increasingly becoming a distant memory, and Wlad will be rated above him.

In terms Longevity and dominance as champion, Wlad is right up there in the top 5 of any future list of all time great HWs.

 

Joe Louis beats the dog **** out of Wlad h2h as well.