Could you make a case that Holmes was the hardest heavyweight to beat?

So lets get this straight, Norton is better than Foreman And Witherspoon is better than Frazier, then what does that make Bonecrusher Smith top5 ATG?

 

Before you continue:

Foreman was at his absolute peak during the Ali fight. Whatever horrible Foreman looked, that was BECAUSE of Ali. Sorry man but he beat Foreman as he was on top of the world at heights he never again regained, yet somehow you are saying this wasn't his best and that a 15-0 Witherspoon who had done nothing close to just destroying the undefeated Frazier in 2 rounds as well as Norton in 2, was comparable?


And then to continue how Ali's opposition in the 60's was shitty.. they were the best around! He'd already twice beaten Liston, humiliated Patterson, beat Chuvalo, Cooper, Mildenberger... anyone who was anyone got a chance.

Fast forward to Holmes... he never fought Page, Dokes, Coetzee, Thomas, Witherspoon rematch, Norton rematch, Williams rematch and the Weaver rematch, but instead was in the ring with guys like LeDoux, Cobb, Zanon, et al.

And then you have the audacity to point a finger at Ali and say his 60's opponents should not have been given a title shot? I know you're better than this man, but your love for Holmes is becoming embarrassing to the degree that you're making completely contradictary and double standard statements.

Ali's title run in the 70's was lack luster or worse at times, but in the 60's his run was phenomenal and pisses all over what Holmes has done in his prime, as great as Holmes is.

 

Ali wasn't exactly known for it either. BOTH lacked fine body attacks, tho as Chris said Ali did a bit more of it in the 60's.

 

Ack, give us a rough idea. Is Johnson on it? He's on mine. I still think #9 is underrating him, still not sure to put him ahead of though. :huh

 

Pretty much how it is. Well put. :good

 

My list from 6-10:

6. Liston
7. Frazier
8. Tyson
9. Johnson
10. Holyfield

 

You don't think Ali may have had a say in that?

 

I think we need to get a few things straight ( of course, as usual Chris has beaten me to the punch on some of them ). ALI was the one who was past his best In the Foreman fight as well as in the second Frazier fight. Foreman was at his absolute best, while Frazier may not have been any better off than Ali, but he certainly wasn't any worse. And what are these comparisons that you're making with Witherspoon and Norton being better opponents for Holmes, but Foreman and Frazier were supposed to be lesser challenges for Ali????? Need I remind you that as good as Tim was, he was a 15 fight novice who had just barely eeked a controversial decision against Renaldo Snipes? Foreman - a 40-0 world champion with a gold medal who just got through sparking Norton and Frazier was not as good of a win? And look at the outcomes. Holmes barely squeezes by on the skin of his arse with a split decision over Spoon, while Ali humiliates Foreman with a legit KO in front of heaven and earth as his witness.

WWWTTTTTFFFFFF are you talking about!?!?!?!?!?!

I like you Mendoza/Dr.Z and no offense, but sometimes I fail to see your logic....

 

Man, you take the expression "beating a dead horse" to new heights. I love how you use Ali's great perfomance against Foreman against him. Ali made fighters like Liston, Quarry and even Patterson look bad, and they were all technically superior to Foreman.

And as for a guy 3 months shy of 33 with a 3,5 year gap in his active career not being past his best...

No, of course, 25 year old Foreman, coming off a GREAT streak, is the one who was past it. You really need to lay this to rest.

 

I understand what you're trying to say, but If I may say so, I think you're looking at it the wrong way. Sure, Norton and Witherspoon looked better against Holmes than Foreman did against Ali....They DIDN"T get KTFO. But don't you think Muhammad Ali had something to do with What happened to Foreman that evening? Foreman was landing punch after punch and following Ali around the ring. He even said years later, that he was hitting him with some of the hardest shots that he had ever landed on a man, and Ali would just say to him " is that all you got George. " Do you really think Tim Witherspoon would have knocked Ali out that evening? I will also ad that Ken Norton was a fighter who utilized a style that generally gave boxers trouble. Therefore, he was better positioned to give Holmes a better fight than Foreman was Ali. Incidently look at how Norton beat Ali, then got killed by Foreman.. Styles make fights my man..
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You make a fair point, but as much as I don't think he was washed up, I also don't think that he was at his peak either. Muhammad had suffered losses to both Norton and Frazier, and lost nearly 4 years of his prime in exhile. Additionally, when we look at him in his fights against Liston, Patterson, Terrell, Chuvalo, Williams and Folley, he is clearly less easy to hit, and prehaps even posessing a bit more sting and accuracy to his punches.
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I think what became evident to most people after this fight, was Ali was all wrong for Foreman. A man who has seemingly endless stamina, good boxing skills, and a proven chin, is generally a bad matchup for Foreman. Jimmy Young and to a lesser extent Evander Holyfield both fit the bill. Now, its possible that part of Foreman's performance may have been attributed to his suffering from heat prostration, but frankly I don't give this theory much merit because this story changes everytime he tells it. I believe his latest claim was that he was poisoned.
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Or was he fighting a totally different type of opponent?

 

I don't agree with that (the part in bold). Anyway, Frazier looked **** against Foreman. The main difference is that he was 10 lbs overweight and probably quite overconfident and unmotivated. So...