Could Young George take the shots and muscle people around like Old George did?

The young George Foreman, let's say 1973-1977 edition lost his chin as his psyche was damaged after his stamina was badly exposed at the hands of Muhammad Ali in 1974's Rumble In The Jungle, but before that fight, Foreman was very menacing like in the mold of his idol Charles Sonny Liston, fundamentals were not required with that brute strength. It was not a question of being able to take a punch because the early version of Foreman delivered the punches, his opponents were to busy trying to survive his onslaught. George Foreman was not co dependent on his corner, Archie Moore and D. Sadler, nor did he lose his prime at age 23. The older version of George Foreman that came back in 1987 was flabbier, slower and showed mercy to his opponents, the younger version could care less about the well being of his adversaries. The older version displayed better stamina but got marked up as in his bout against Alex Stewart.

 

V true Richard. The Stewart fight was a proper battle and both men got battered.
A younger George v Stewart, now does that end quickly or not I wonder?

 

Fergy, that fight would have ended much quicker in George Foreman's favor back in the era of 1973. George would have not worried much about fundamentals, he would have parried a few jabs by Alex Stewart, then pushed him off balance, then unleashed a whirlwind of blows sending Alex to the canvas, when Stewart got up he would be badly dazed, then Foreman would have battered him like he did to prime Ken Norton in 1974, a sledgehammer right hand ends it for good. Yeah George's victory would have resembled a 1950's monster movie, better than a grown man fighting a shark, Lol.

 

More than likely, Richard.
Maybe Poor Alex gets hammered quickly.

 

The young George’s manhandling and shoving crossed the line a bit but because he saw his opponents off so quickly in general, even if he was warned once or several times the cautions never amounted to anything.

Over longer fights he would possibly be looking at deductions.

I guess the fights that some might believe point to a less sturdy chin in Young Foreman’s are: v Ali, v Lyle and v Young. We have two bouts in which both heat and fatigue played a big factor - though I will say Ali’s power punching display in Zaire is somewhat overlooked or underrated. Then we have Lyle who could actually punch very hard, particularly when forced to do so in a shootout.

Psyche might’ve effected George’s resilience post Zaire but I think the more significant modifications in Old George were style and pacing. Not actually a better chin.

I think the different style and accents of Young George and Old George are somewhat mutually exclusive - not necessarily able to be combined to make a Super George.

Though I will say Clancy was on the right track with the better paced and patient Young Foreman in the Frazier rematch and again, Joe landed some whistling left hooks that still didn’t even budge Foreman.

 

Being big, strong, durable ect wasn ever a weakness of his in the 70s his issues for Lyle had everything to do with his pacing, timing and lack of defence but his conviction and toughness was something special and he really always felt like he’d win no matter what he did to a fault.

Truly he was lucky to have not been an 80s-90s fighter as a young man, with a big durable type who could mix it up he would always be a 60-40 most of the time but if you flip a coin often enough… He’d never be a long lasting champion with his mentality and mixed bag of flaws though.

 

Obviously he could take the shot's as well.

No fighter in history, ever had a better chin in their 40s, than they did in their prime.

Trauma is accumulative, and you can't put muscles on chins.

Was he stronger later in life?

Possibly, but I suspect not by a prohibitive margin.

Time is not on your side, in any sport.

 

None. He owed it to pacing himself better,his chin was the same in both careers, he just learned to harvest his stamina more intelligently.

 

Basically the success of old George, and old Larry in the 90s, is one of the stronger arguments against that era.

The top men of previous eras, took care of the best of the previous generation, convincingly enough!

 

I don't see Lyle knocking over old Foreman.

 

Lifting weights does not give you a better chin. What allowed Foreman to go an entire 2nd career without a single knockdown was because he was smarter. He paced himself better and had better defense.

The mummy stance 70's Foreman used is good at picking off single shots or looping blows, but if someone has good hand speed and throws sharp shots down the middle, it's harder to use. Worth noting that in the Lyle match, he was not using his typical mummy stance and had a new trainer using a more boxer punch like textbook stance. It takes time to use a brand new style, especially with a new trainer. Foreman's timing with his jab was terrible and the stance was half assed, which is why Lyle was able to land overhand rights over and over. Something had to give, and Lyle was a tremendous puncher. Having been backed into a corner with his new style not working, Foreman resorted to his old ways and brawled. People can dispute Foreman's claims if they want, but anytime someone asks him about who hit the hardest his face becomes serious and mentions Lyle consistently even after his long 2nd career facing numerous large modern sized guys.

The Ali and Young knockdowns were primarily due to exhaustion and extreme heat, a point which has been repeated more times than the pledge of allegiance at this point. He fought rather reckless, especially in Zaire, and blew his gas tank trying to go for the KO against slippery opponents. Pretty simple stuff. Put any other puncher in that scenario and I'm sure 99% of them get dropped too.

The cross arm guard that 90's Foreman used is an extremely effective and sturdy guard. For a guy like him who had very large arms, it was perfect for protecting his jaw. Look at the Hoylfield fight and you can see Foreman primarily getting hit above the eyes or the side of the head. Very few of those blows from Holyfield's all out assault landed flush to the jaw. Foreman was very observant in his come back and rolled with shots he couldn't block or dodge. Rather than flying into a rage trading punches, Foreman would simply let overly aggressive opponents pound away at his strong durable arms, regain his composure, then hit back. This was also the weakness of the cross arm guard since you cannot quickly jab out of it or fire back. Since you're using both arms it's also difficult to change elevation and protect both the head and body.

So to summarize all the key points:

-lifting weights will not improve your chin, as in your actual chin (not overall durability). However, strengthening your legs and neck might help you absorb the impact of blows.

-Foreman quite clearly benefitted from pacing himself better and working on his defense. He had a seek and destroy style in the 70's and was often quite willing to eat a shot he couldn't block or parry confident his lethal power could turn the tide in his favor.

-the knockdowns in the 70's are quite easy to explain. If he had simply paced himself, got used to the heat, didn't immediately fight dangerous foes after changing his style and trainers, etc it's possible none of them would have happened. If 90's Foreman went back to that reckless style and didn't conserve his energy he'd probably get himself knocked down as well.

-your chin isn't getting better with age. Especially after a 10 year layoff and having dozens of fights across long amateur and professional careers (not to mention wear and tear from sparring, road work etc). What got better was his mind and approach.

-your ability to absorb a shot is as much mental as it is physical. Ali shattered his confidence. Prior to that, he shook off bombs from Frazier, Norton, Chuvalo, and other boxers who obviously hit harder than Ali.

 

I agree with pretty much all of the above, but I think the extra mass did help.

It's just a natural fact of life that just being bigger allows someone to absorb more damage, everything else being equal.
The extra layer of fat/muscle around his neck and trapezius and shoulders could possibly have aided him a little in taking a shot a bit better.
Also, mass moves mass. Being heavier probably aided Foreman to push people around more easily.

 

With punching power, we can rubber stamp an average rating but sometimes said fighter might punch a bit better or a bit less in any given fight.

I just feel that a heavier (than the preceding Norton and Frazier fights at least) and more flat footed Ali was punching very hard with George taking some tremendous shots very well throughout but ultimately, the accumulative effect of same and the heat saw Foreman’s tank drain that much more quickly and dramatically.

So true re Ron Lyle’s counter right hands, his primary weapon v Foreman. The ease with which Ronnie was landing same was akin to how easily Max Schmeling was landing the right on Louis in their first match.

However, Lyle could punch so much harder than Max - so, BUT for Foreman’s chin and heart, it might’ve proved itself to be as equally a fatal flaw as it was for Louis.

When guys like Tillis describe Shavers’ power using superlatives and over the top metaphors, even if based on a genuine rating of Earnie’s power, it loses a bit in translation when it moves from literal description to sheer hype.

Here’s Forman’s take on Lyle’s power - it’s absolutely genuine imo. George is softly spoken but you can see him literally reflecting on what it felt like as he describes same - and George’s visual demonstration of what the punches did to him is just perfect.

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I disagree about the quote of Tilis. It's nowhere near hyping Shavers power. It's 500% genuine. No one can come up something so random in a split second. He saw blue rats smoking cigarettes drinking whisky. Only idiots say Tilis is lying.