Create a street gang using 10 different fighters

Go back and read the posts and hopefully you'll see that your reponses were not only disproportionate, but eventually hypocritical. Your personal attacks far exceeded mine.

I wasn't "forced to admit" anything. I merely stated facts. Liston failed to train for Clay and bailed. He took a dive against Ali due to circumstances that made that choice no choice at all. That is almost common knowledge. You prop that up as your only evidence that supports your tenuous opinion that Liston was nothing but a prison thug who ran away whenever someone stood up to him. It's clear to me that you formed an opinion about Liston based on selective evidence. What do you know about the first Marshall fight? Williams I and II? Liston was a tragic figure who did some bad things in his life -but a wimp he was not.

So yes, my opinion that you don't know your Liston history is supported by what you said -and what you did not say.

 

Yea, I cant read or count but here is 10

1) Marciano..Known to be the toughest streetfighter in Boston
2)Liston...Sonny had the look and he was good with a bat
3)Lamotta...Tough guy and was good with a metal pipe
4)GRAZIANO..WAS FROM THE STREETS AND A TOUGH DUDE
5)Lennox Lewis I saw him wrestle Iron Mike and he can punch
6)Basilio...ALL BALLS
7)Tyson...the man can puch and bite
8)Dempsey...Hard as nails and mean, tough coal mine battles
9)Ali..he will talk them down and float and sting
10)Ketchel..Tough hard hitting and mean

 

This would have to be a Tex Rickard promotion

Jake LaMotta... to steal the money
Jeff Fenech.... to steal the watches
Carlos Monzon.. to toss any question makers off the balcony
Rubin Carter... to drive the get away car
Jack Johnson... to help cross the border
Mike Tyson... to prevent any possible traffic incidents
Les darcy... to ensure safe passage from the country
Joe Bugner... to enable a smooth introduction to a foreign land
Julio Cesar Chavez... to help conquer language difficulties
'Gentleman' John Jackson... to gain the confidence of dignitories and politicians....

Well, Im amused anyway......

 

Stonehands, so this is on the record:

Your position on Miami was that Liston had "no choice" but to quit on his stool , correct ? And that this is commonly agreed upon ? Just making sure I have your words correct.

Here's where you are flat out wrong. Most historians agree that he was a bully that quit when faced with a talented fighter that challanged him. Where they DISAGREE with you is that Sonny had no choice but to do so.

Sonny was losing but was not getting badly beaten from a physical standpoint. He was never knocked down. He was never seriously staggered. He was not bady cut where he could not see punches coming or absorbing exceptional punishment. He simply quit like a dog. The man held the greatest title in the history of sports back when it still meant something and he tossed it away because he was a front runner who lacked the heart to come from behind and win .

Think of John L. Sullivan getting pummelled for 21 rounds by Corbett and not quitting until he had to be carried out. Jeffries in Reno. Think of Willard getting brutalized by Dempsey until he could not get off a stool. Think of Dempsey getting his lights punched out by Tunney but still coming on at the final bells. Patterson down seven time v.s. Ingo but still getting up. Frazier down six times v.s. Foreman and still getting up. Holyfield in Bowe 1 ... then think of your boy and how he disgraced himself.

Fight historians agree that Liston quit in Miami , not that he was so badly beaten he could not get up and continue. That is why he is forever tarnished and his character questioned.

For the record I know all about both Marshall fights as well as the Williams fights. That's boxing 101. To say someone you do not know has no knowledge of a topic is a childish argument. Back on point, you accept and justify quitting and I say it is defining.

 

You are free to believe that it is "childish" to accuse someone who writes sloppy slander with selective evidence as not knowing much about the subject. And by the same token, I am free to believe that someone who writes sloppy slander with selective evidence does not
know much about the subject. However, the writer of this statement:

You shopuld have known it would be me? Who the **** are you? I'm sorry, next time I'll be careful what I write when your having your period...

is undeniably childish.
...........

On to the real issues:

To begin with, you didn't read what I wrote carefully. Against Clay (in Miami), Liston seems to have bailed. Against Ali (in Maine), he took a dive. I should have said that it is commonly suspected not known, that he took a dive. And if he did take a dive, he did it because of the guys who owned him and he had no choice.

I believe that he bailed in Miami.... but I'd stop short of judging him with 100% certainty as you have. A doctor with the Miami Beach Athletic Commission found that he had injured his left shoulder enough to incapacitate the arm. Another doctor in Detroit found that he had ruptured the arm and found blood and swelling about 4 inches below the left shoulder.

Interestingly enough, you write off Liston and compare him negatively with Marciano in terms of courage.... and yet who do you have whipping Marciano in 7 or 8 rounds?? "Liston".

You mention John L. Sullivan as an example of courage. At the onset of one bout between John L. and Charley Mitchell, Sullivan walked into the ring and announced that he wasn't going to fight -too drunk or too sick or both. Mitchell was about 150 lbs -40 lbs lighter than Sullivan. John L. also called on that cowardly color line and refused to meet Peter Jackson, even after being offered $50,000 by the California Athletic Club. Is that courage?

Joe Gans quit match after a serious eye injury in 1900. Battling Nelson effectively quit by flagrantly fouling after Gans gave him a beating over 42 rounds. Erik Morales quit against Manny Pacquiao. Tszyu quit against Hatton. Roberto Duran quit.

Do you write these guys off as "quitters" who "couldn't cope with someone standing up to them"?

What say you?

 

arturo gatti
antonio margarito
michael gomez
ricky hatton
george foreman
ron lyle
shane mosley
micky ward
erik morales
marco antonio barrera

 

I say your arguments continue to be reaching and weak. Only Duran's "No Mas" comes close to Liston and it has damaged Duran to many people who to this day only remember him for it. However, Duran came back with huge wins to rebuild his credibility while Liston followed up with the Maine disaster.

Just so we can have the record straight, are you saying Liston quit in Miami or that his shoulder injury caused him to give up the heavyweight title? Please be clear on this. Then explain your thoughts on Liston in Maine. Simply answer the questions.

 

He easily wrestled a scary, fists-clenched, hell-with-consequences, I'm-gonna-put-an-end-to-this-crap-RIGHT NOW!-mindset Frazier to harmlessness on TV.

 

1. Ike Ibeabuchi
2. Papa Jack
3. George Foreman
4. Roberto Duran
5. Ricardo Mayorga
6. Harry Greb
7. Sandy Saddler
8. Sam Langford
9. Rocky Marciano
10. Jake LaMotta

 

Unlike you, I don't avoid questions. In fact, I have already answered yours. Here it is again with more detail: No reasonable person would claim to know for certain whether Liston quit unjustifiably in Miami or whether he threw the fight in Maine. I tend to think that he bailed in Miami -partly due to a shoulder injury but also due to his getting embarrassed by Clay. I believe that he threw the fight in Maine. He was an 8-5 favorite going in, despite the loss in Miami, and that tells me that his backers cashed in on him and washed their hands of him. Sonny's record for the rest of his career was about 15-1 and yet no title shot was forthcoming. This was probably because he had no support from the "powers that were", as well as because of his infamous performance in Maine.

Liston, approaching 40, fought hard for the rest of his career. He had some good wins, including his last one against Bugner. Bugner suffered a broken nose, a broken cheekbone, a closed eye and 72 stitches. He spent three days in the hospital -"I was in shock for three days" he stated.

Anyway, it's clear from your latest post that you continue to demonstrate ignorance about Liston's career -both pre- and now, post- Clay. And now you not only fail to answer questions posed to you, but you evade retorts that attack your reasoning by writing them off as "weak". This is clearly becoming your modus operandi -writing off not only fighters you don't like but opposing arguments you evidently can't deal with.

Answer the questions. Please enlighten the board as to what the difference is between Liston quitting on his stool against Clay and Tszyu quitting on his stool against Hatton, with one round to go.

 

I can see your still bleeding...no problem, a couple of days and you should be fine ...

Predictably, you are hedging in Miami but admitting he took a dive in Maine .... this is a top ten guy for your all time street gang ?

I ignore most of your questions because they are such amateurish reaches (clearly revealing your limited knowledge of the sport) that it is an embarrassment dealing with you. However I'll throw you a bone ...The difference is that Kosta took a vicious pounding from Hatton, suffering a concussion along the way. Liston received no where near the punishment because he was a bully that lacked a champions heart and quit.

Have a nice life. I'm done wasting time on you ...

 

... there is little difference between what happened in Hatton-Tszyu and what happened in Clay-Liston. Let's look at the similarities:

* Young 20 something up-and-comers shocked older champs in their mid-30s.

* Liston and Tszyu were overwhelmed by the speed and activity of Clay and Hatton.

* Both older men faded badly.

* Both took repeated shots and attempted to gain illicit advantages -Liston with the liniment on the gloves, Tszyu with a series of low blows.

* Both quit.

* Both claimed injury -Tszyu a concussion, Liston an sprained shoulder.

"He grant" seems to excuse everyone who quit in the ring except for Liston. The reason he gave for excusing Tszyu and condemning Liston is silly on its face and merely magnifies his bias. And now he's very upset and has chosen to throw another online temper tantrum and quit the ring. Much like the Liston of his imagination he is running away because someone stood up to him, or in this case, someone who called him on his sloppy slander and his sloppier reasoning. He is an emotional poster who resorts to personal attacks while accusing me of the same, avoids addressing substantive issues while accusing me of the same, and is neither objective nor reasonable in a debate. All this from a self-proclaimed "historian".

 

I'll publicly vouch for Stonehands89 on this forum. His knowledge of boxing is anything but limited. His posts are always informative and extremely well thought out. Opinions vary on the forum, that's the way it should be...Stonehands is an exemplary poster on this forum.

 

I'd like having Iran Barkley on my side in a street brawl.