Criticizing Jones' resume

Discussion in 'World Boxing Forum' started by KillSomething, Jan 9, 2015.


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  1. KillSomething

    KillSomething Boxing Junkie Full Member

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    You're right on one thing. DM and Hill agreed to fight KNOWING that the winner would have a defense against Guthrie. After they signed to fight each other, the IBF ruled that Guthrie must have a shot by July17 or something (90 days after the fight). The fight got pushed back and they ended up fighting 36 days before the deadline.

    Now any reasonable promoter, fighter, or challenger would expect an extension on the original date, because the spirit of the ruling was that Guthrie would get his shot 90 days after the champ's next fight. The IBF refused to budge on that and stripped DM first chance they got, letting Guthrie fight some bum for the vacant title.

    DM NEVER vacated the belt.
     
    KillSomething, Jan 12, 2015
    KillSomething, Jan 12, 2015
    #301
  2. Rumsfeld

    Rumsfeld Moderator Staff Member

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    That of course depends on the all-important-question of whether or not Wlad takes them to court.

    :smoke
     
    Rumsfeld, Jan 12, 2015
    Rumsfeld, Jan 12, 2015
    #302
  3. KillSomething

    KillSomething Boxing Junkie Full Member

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    Guthrie:

    [yt]YhJQZmqWRjE[/yt]
    [yt]T-AN2IHva-M[/yt]
     
    KillSomething, Jan 12, 2015
    KillSomething, Jan 12, 2015
    #303
  4. Loudon

    Loudon Loyal Member Full Member

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    There were lots of politics happening back then.

    The WBC handing Roy his belt back after Roch had beaten Nunn for it, was absolutely disgusting. To this day I can't understand how it could have happened.

    Nobody should have given Dariusz the ultimatum that they did.


    But I'm just looking at things from different perspectives.

    Did Dariusz refuse to give up the WBO, on principle, because he had a big ego, and nobody was going to tell him what to do?

    Or deep down, was he not too upset by the situation?


    At the time, the WBO wasn't respected. The Ring magazine didn't have ratings for it, it wasn't needed to become the unified/undisputed champ, and just a few years after Dariusz had been stripped, it became a complete laughing stock, due to Darrin Morris incident.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Darrin_Morris


    Again, I want to make it perfectly clear, that I didn't agree with how Dariusz was treated.

    Quite frankly, it was a joke.

    But I have to look at his actions afterwards, and his resume, and ask myself, was he really outraged?

    His promoter Klaus Peter Kohl, strikes me as the type of guy who wouldn't have hesitated to either have tried to take them to court, or to have repeatedly publicly voiced his disgust.


    Now I can't speak for anyone else, but it appears to me that he was content to just keep milking the WBO in Germany for great money.

    If you look at the situation where Roy became the undisputed champ, wouldn't Dariusz have been absolutely outraged by that?

    Wouldn't he have gone to Kohl and demanded that he did all he could to make the fight, because Roy was walking around with his old belts?

    The injustice should have filled him with fire, and motivated him to chase down the fight.

    Yet at one point, Kohl admitted that he was purposely ignoring HBO's calls.


    IMHO, fans of the sport appeared much more upset than Dariusz seemed to be.

    Let's look at his resume after he was stripped.


    Piper
    Zener
    Magi
    Prince
    Thadzi
    Biarslanov
    Griffin
    Rocchigiani
    Ka-Da King
    Lakatos
    Hall x2
    De Grandis
    Harmon
    Gonzalez
    Tiozzio


    Now is that the resume of a guy, who was outraged for being unfairly stripped of his titles?

    All those fights were in Germany, apart from one.

    That resume speaks volumes to me.

    It tells me two things:

    1. It wasn't such a big deal for him and Kohl that he was stripped.

    2. He had no intentions of fighting Roy in the U.S.


    I think he was more than happy to fight the guys that he did.
     
    Loudon, Jan 12, 2015
    Loudon, Jan 12, 2015
    #304
  5. Loudon

    Loudon Loyal Member Full Member

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    People mocked the WBO belt, because at the time, it wasn't respected.

    Dariusz's belts weren't gifted to Roy.

    He wasn't just handed them.
     
    Loudon, Jan 12, 2015
    Loudon, Jan 12, 2015
    #305
  6. Loudon

    Loudon Loyal Member Full Member

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    The fact that Dariusz didn't contest the decision, didn't make everything ok.

    Far from it.

    But it tells you that he didn't seem too bothered by it.
     
    Loudon, Jan 12, 2015
    Loudon, Jan 12, 2015
    #306
  7. Imperial1

    Imperial1 VIP Member Full Member

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    If Jones fought half of those guys you listed they be police officers and can drivers ..If anything after he won the belt he fought his way out of the number 1 spot with those fights.
     
    Imperial1, Jan 12, 2015
    Imperial1, Jan 12, 2015
    #307
  8. Serge

    Serge Ginger Dracula Staff Member

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    You too. Thanks.

    I don't know. Daruisz had a great chin and was excellent fighter. It was all a bit strange.

    He looked a hard man too. That craggy face of his. lol. He looked funny when he used to have his mullet. lol. His brother was actually fairly good looking IIRC.

    I used to like that fight a lot. Like I said, I watched it dozens of times.

    That was the first time I'd heard of him too. I just remember the build up and how the British sporting press were selling Rocchigiani as a wild man with a bad boy reputation.

    I can't really say as I've not seen too much of Liles. I think I have four of his fights on my hard drive which I downloaded. I've seen the Byron Mitchell, Littles II ones, and I actually watched the Andrey Shkalikov one fairly recently too, although I had to watch it with no sound as for some strange reason the sound won't work for certain video files on my PC (the sound isn't working at all on my PC at the moment, which is really annoying) and to be perfectly honest I couldn't really keep my concentration without the audio. I also have his fights against Frederic Seillier and Jaffa Ballogou but I haven''t got round to watching them yet.

    Rocchigiani was a very good fighter though, and contrary to what that cancerous creep Conraddobler said, I didn't make any reference to a match up between him and Roy at all. I was merely responding to the post above mine, ie. yours. The one where you said he lost to Maske and Eubank and I expressed my opinion regarding those fights with a bit of added trivia thrown in. Like I said, he was robbed in their first encounter - and Maske was an excellent fighter (even Roy said that Maske would've been a very difficult fight for him).

    Rocchigiani was very unlucky against Dariusz in their first fight as well. He's the only person I can recall ever seeing hurt Maske. He might not have looked spectacular but he was obviously effective and a handful at his best. He had that bad boy reputation, getting into trouble with the law and problems with the bottle etc. so it makes you wonder how much of an impact that had on his career, if he was as dedicated as he should've been and whether he was always taking training seriously. I think he blew an awful lot of money on booze, although I don't know at what stage his drinking habits became a problem.

    Here's a quote from him.

    ''The alcohol has made me much broken. I do not drink more sip. "

    How the hell did he squander all that cash he got from the WBC? He must've earned a fair bit during his career too.

    PS. Conraddobler. Perhaps I didn't make myself clear enough last time when I asked you not to respond to my posts. Please don't respond to any of them from here on in and keep my name out of your mouth too you malevolent little freak. I have about as much interest conversing with belligerent, argumentative weirdos like you as I do watching execution videos on gore sites. Next time you respond to one of my posts I'll just put you on ignore. Make sure it registers this time.
     
    Serge, Jan 12, 2015
    Serge, Jan 12, 2015
    #308
  9. Loudon

    Loudon Loyal Member Full Member

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    :good
     
    Loudon, Jan 12, 2015
    Loudon, Jan 12, 2015
    #309
  10. KillSomething

    KillSomething Boxing Junkie Full Member

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    Michalczewski:

    *WBO LHW Won vs Barber in 1994, lost via controversial SD to Gonzalez in 2003.
    *IBF LHW Won vs Hill, stripped 3 days after winning for not fighting Guthrie.
    Source: http://boxrec.com/media/index.php/IBF_Light_Heavyweight_Champion
    *WBA LHW Won vs Hill, stripped after 17 days (on the next working day for the WBA) for simultaneously holding/displaying the WBO title.
    Source: http://boxrec.com/media/index.php/WBA_Light_Heavyweight_Champion
    *WBC LHW Won vs Rocchigiani who was retroactively restored to champion status (from the date he won the vacant title against Nunn to the date he lost to DM) by legal decision.
    Source: http://boxrec.com/media/index.php/WBC_Light_Heavyweight_Champion
    *WBO CW Won vs Giovannini, vacated and moved back to LHW
    *Lineal LHW Won vs Hill 1997, lost vs Gonzalez 2003
    -23 LHW Title Defenses (LHW record)
    -First since Michael Spinks to unify LHW
    -Last to unify LHW until Sergey Kovalev
    -From unifying against Hill to his first loss, won all 14 of his fights by knockout.
    -Lost his first fight (controversially) while attempting to match Marciano's 49-0.
    -Beat 5 current or former champs: Barber, Giovannini, Rocchigiani, Hill, and Griffin

    Anecdotes:
    -Eddie Futch trained Montell Griffin for fights with both RJJ and DM. After watching Darius live and in person, he said "Jones don't want none of what Dariusz has." Whenever anyone would mention that match-up to Futch he always picked DM by KO or TKO.

    -RJJ put up a "who should I fight next" website and HBO did a fan poll on who Jones next opponent should be. Michalczewski was the overwhelming winner. Jones pulled his website and asked HBO not to announce the winner of their contest.

    -Larry Merchant asked Jones about fighting DM so often that Jones tried to have his contract amended so that HBO was not allowed to mention DM during the broadcast of any of his fights.

    Roy Jones

    Facts:
    -All but two of his belts were paper titles:
    *IBF MW vacant title vs Hopkins (a 100% legitimate fight between undefeated prospects)
    *IBF SMW title vs Toney (excellent, 100% legitimate fight vs a p4p fighter and unified champ)
    *WBA SMW title (was stripped from McCallum for fighting Toney, should rightfully have belonged to Jones after beating Toney)
    *WBC LHW vacant title vs McCallum (a 100% legitimate fight, since Tiozzo had vacated the title and McCallum was the previous champ)
    *WBC LHW title illegally restored after vacating
    *WBA LHW title previously stripped from Michalczewski
    *IBF LHW title previously stripped from Michalczewski
    *WBA HW title previously stripped from Lennox Lewis
    -Lost his first fight via DQ for hitting Montell Griffin twice while he was down.. Legitimate loss, especially since Jones was down on the cards at the time of the DQ.
    -Beat 16 current/former champs: Vaca, Hopkins, Toney, Hill, Gonzalez, Castro, Malinga, Pazienza, Lucas, Johnson, McCallum, Griffin, Woods, Tarver, Trinidad, Lacy
    *It should be noted that anyone who feels Trinidad, Lacy, Pazienza, McCallum, and Vaca are significant wins in any way is clearly deluded.
    -18 Title Defenses

    Anecdotes:
    -Played semi-pro basketball on the same day as a title fight vs Eric Lucas.

    1993-1994 MW Contemporaries:
    WBA John David Jackson 1993-1994
    WBC McClellan 1993-1994
    WBO Pyatt 1993-1994
    WBO Collins 1994-1995
    1994-1996 SMW Contemporaries:
    WBA Liles 1994-1999 (title stripped from McCallum, Jones rightful owner).
    WBC Benn 1992-1996
    WBO Eubank 1991-1995
    WBO Collins 1995-1997
    1996-2003 LHW Contemporaries:
    WBC #1 Nunn 1998
    WBC Rocchigianni 1998-2000
    WBC (Rightful) Michalczewski 2000-2003
    IBF (Rightful) Michalczewski 1997-2003
    WBA (Rightful) Michalczewski 1997-2003
    WBO Michalczewski 1994-2003
    2003 HW Contemporaries:
    WBC Lewis 2001-2004
    IBF Byrd 2002-2006
    WBO Klitschko, Sanders 2003

    http://a.espncdn.com/boxing/columns/abramowitz_roberto/23668.html
    http://www.cyberboxingzone.com/boxing/lhvyline.html
    http://www.***********.com/measured-against-all-time-roy-jones-jr--21561
     
    KillSomething, Jan 12, 2015
    KillSomething, Jan 12, 2015
    #310
  11. KillSomething

    KillSomething Boxing Junkie Full Member

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    This will assist you in your debate.
     
    KillSomething, Jan 12, 2015
    KillSomething, Jan 12, 2015
    #311
  12. Drew101

    Drew101 Obsessed with Boxing Full Member

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    RJJ's super-middleweight resume.

    Glenn Thomas (undefeated, though untested prospect)
    Percy Harris (fringe contender at middleweight)
    Thulani Malinga (future titleholder)
    Fermin Chirino (journeyman)
    Danny Garcia (journeyman)
    James Toney (reigning titleholder, p4p Top 5 at the time)
    Antoine Byrd (fringe contender, considered a gimme title defense at the time)
    Vinny Pazienza (former titleholder at LMW and LW, contender at 168lbs)
    Tony Thornton (occasional contender who had reappeared in the rankings after winning a regional title)
    Eric Lucas (future titleholder)
    Bryant Brannon (undefeated contender)

    So...

    * One great victory (Toney)
    * Three good victories (Malinga, Lucas, and Paz), due to the credentials of the opponents and manner in which they were handled.
    * Four respectable victories (Brannon, Thornton, Harris, Thomas...mainly due to the fact that they were defeated more decisively by RJJ than they had been by previous opponents that they had faced)
    * One okay victory (Byrd. He may have been over-matched, but he had taken titleholder Lindell Holmes the full route and had run him close. RJJ waxed him in one, so he at least gets some credit for doing what he was supposed to do.)
    * Two meaningless victories (Garcia and Cherino)

    Given that RJJ was mixed in some good/very good wins at 160lbs (Castro, Hopkins, Tate), and added in a nice victory over Sosa (who was coming off his career best win over a very good Prince Charles Williams), it's a decent body of work.

    Plus, he was terrifying through much of this time period, and that counts for something.

    Hardly an embarrassment, at any rate.
     
    Drew101, Jan 12, 2015
    Drew101, Jan 12, 2015
    #312
  13. KillSomething

    KillSomething Boxing Junkie Full Member

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    Toney: Outstanding win.
    Malinga: Kind of a Glenn Johnson. Bad overall career with some really good wins mixed in. Serviceable win.
    Paz: A former lightweight who did nothing above 154, ever.
    Thornton: A goddamn mailman.
    Lucas: Had no credentials at the time, picked up a belt later. nothing special.
    Brannon, Harris, Thomas, Byrd, Cherino, Garcia: So now Roy gets credit for the ease with which he dispatched nobodies?

    This resume is terrible, but it wouldn't be a big deal if there weren't NUMEROUS better fights out there. Liles, Eubank, Benn, Collins, and McClellan were out there holding titles around this time. Plus you had guys like Nunn, Littles, and Julian Jackson just outside the title picture.

    Again, if those guys, those other champs, weren't present...how could we complain about Jones obliterating what was available at the time? But it just looks cringeworthy to see these highlight-reel destructions of nobodies when there were really quality fighters in the division. It bothers me, and any real Jones fan has to wish he'd gotten at least a few of those guys, right?
     
    KillSomething, Jan 12, 2015
    KillSomething, Jan 12, 2015
    #313
  14. KillSomething

    KillSomething Boxing Junkie Full Member

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    In the article I posted by Cliff Rold, even while ranking Roy as a clear ATG and possibly top 10 LHW, he notes that Roy simply didn't fight the world-class, champion punchers and pressure fighters in any division he fought in. He also points out that Roy got KTFO by Tarver and Johnson when he did fight guys who were big punchers and/or pressure fighters. And he hypothesizes that this theme was due to Roy not wanting to face guys who could find that chin.

    It makes sense, to anyone willing to be objective. How can you look at his career and not think that?

    Now let's say Roy's career was the exact same, but add on a McClellan unification at MW in 1994, a Benn or Collins unification at SMW in 1996, a Michalczewski unification at LHW in 2000, Hopkins II at LHW in 2002, and maybe even HW unifications with Byrd and Sanders in 2003-2004 (or Lewis, if you want to really go nuts).

    That would be a career beyond question. Nobody would have a single thing to say about it, even if he did maybe half of those things.
     
    KillSomething, Jan 12, 2015
    KillSomething, Jan 12, 2015
    #314
  15. Rumsfeld

    Rumsfeld Moderator Staff Member

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    You've made some outstanding points throughout, but your opening approach, from the title alone, well - it wasn't bound to be the type of thread that was going to convert any of the die-hard Roy faithful.

    :smoke
     
    Rumsfeld, Jan 12, 2015
    Rumsfeld, Jan 12, 2015
    #315
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