Criticizing Jones' resume

Correct.

I've never disputed that.

But nobody knew what the PPV would generate.

He walked away from the Ruiz fight with over $15m.

That wasn't guaranteed against Sanders.

Roy wanted huge money to remain at HW, and Sanders didn't bring in huge money.

Why would Roy have fought a hard hitting southpaw who was more dangerous than Ruiz, for the same guarantee, and potentially less overall money?

It didn't make sense.

But why did you haters want him to fight Sanders?

I thought the WBA belt that he won from Ruiz was a paper belt?

Yet you wanted him to fight for the WBO?

 

He didn't go out of his way to pick easy fights.

But he fought lots of easy mandatories.

There's a difference.


There were better people to face, but you've got to consider two things:

1. You have to fight your mandatories, in order to keep your belts. When Roy unified at LHW, he was obligated to fight mandatories from three organisations.

2. Many of the better fights weren't available.


Also, nobody looks from Roy's perspective. They only look from the perspective of the guys who he didn't fight.

Nunn and Collins wanted to fight Roy. But Roy didn't. He was looking at other options at the time.

So people shout the word 'duck'!

But everyone has different circumstances surrounding them.

Collins didn't want to fight Joe Calzaghe.

Joe Calzaghe didn't want to fight Carl Froch.

Carl Froch doesn't want to fight James Degale.


It happens all of the time.

There's ducking someone, and there's dismissing someone.

The two are very different.

 

general zod,

I didn't say it wasn't viable. I said it wasn't really viable. After Roy had beaten Hopkins, he wanted a big money fight and he targeted Toney. Toney was a bigger fight than Gerald. So Roy moved up and Gerald remained at MW, before going up to face Benn the following year.

I've never been on Cyberboxing.com, but yes, Roy has spoken of it.

At the moment I can't remember in which interview he spoke of it. But I listened to it recently, so I'll try and find it for you.

You've said on your own thread that you don't think that Roy ducked him.

The judge rightfully declared that, due to the complete incompetence of the WBC.

He spoke of wanting to fight Evander after his win over Griffin in the rematch.

He wasn't happy with the purse that Nunn brought.

He then went to Atlanta with Greg Fritz to meet Evander and Jim Thomas in Feb, 98.

When Evander wasn't interested, he lined up Buster Douglas.

Nobody here is disputing that Roy didn't want to fight Nunn.

I know he didn't want to fight him.

But I'm putting forward the argument that Roy didn't duck him out of a fear of losing to him.

Nobody ducks a 35 year old Michael Nunn, and then goes on to challenge Evander Holyfield.

It's completely illogical.

I've no arguments.

He didn't want to fight Nunn for the money that was available.

We've been through all of this numerous times.

You only ever look from the other guys perspective.

Right, so the version of Nunn from 97, was superior to the version of Reggie that Roy fought in 99?

If beating Reggie meant nothing, what would beating that version of Nunn meant?

You've said yourself in the past, that Nunn was badly faded at that point.

He went on to lose to Roch, who was good but not great, who you once labelled as a 'Woods level' fighter.

True, but he was a huge southpaw who'd beaten Tarver. If Roy had been afraid to fight a faded Nunn, why would he have fought Harding?

Roy didn't have to do anything. Nobody made Roy do anything he didn't want to do.

Now you tell me who the bigger threat was.

You tell me who brought the bigger challenge to Roy.

Fighting a faded 35 year old Nunn at LHW, at 28?

Or fighting Tarver at almost 35, after losing muscle?

Think about it logically.

A guy who was scared of a faded Michael Nunn, would not then go on to fight a hungry southpaw in Tarver, at 34/35, after dropping muscle.

Again, he didn't have to do anything.

More nonsense.

Roy didn't have to fight Joe.

Roy's ego is huge.

We both know that he would never have intentionally put himself into a situation, where his pride and ego could have taken a public hammering.

He didn't fight Joe just for the money, or because he'd nothing to lose.

He fought Joe because he genuinely believed he had a shot at beating him, which would have put him back into the P4P rankings.

Once again, a guy who ducked Nunn at 28, would not fight Joe at almost 40.

It's completely illogical.

Roy could have continued to have fought the Ajamu's and Hanshaw's of the world.

Fighting Joe just 9 weeks from his 40th birthday, was a much bigger challenge than fighting a faded Nunn at 28.


Let's not forget that he offered to fight Liles, and O'Halloran called Liles foolish, then walked from him. That was your link. O'Halloran was convinced he'd have beaten Roy. He invested a lot of time in him, and moved him into his house. He said that Liles had a great fight lined up, but blew it. HBO also backed him.

So why would a guy who was scared of a faded Nunn, offer to fight Frankie Liles?

Again, it's illogical.

 

How was Hopkins wanting 50/50 a legitimate request?

Roy was also the unified champion at LHW.

Roy had already beaten him.

Roy would had to have dropped weight to hit the catchweight.

So how on earth could Hopkins have expected a 50/50 split?

 

It was very viable.

You are now resorting to lying?

Jones was offered the Toney fight shortly before the Malinga and he turned it down saying the money was not right.

During all of this time Gerald's call outs were getting louder and he was constantly getting into arguments with King due to King's inability to make the fight. It is only after Gerald started to call him out after fights that Jones decided it was time for him to move up

It is obvious from Jones excuses, the lengths he went to to stay on Gerald's good side and his reaction everytime Gerald's name came up that he had no intention of ever fighting him.

?????

 

He has also said that Benn was going through a divorce and would not return his phone calls as well.

Jones has given 6-7 conflicting accounts for why the Benn fight did not happen.

Benn was shot by the time of the Danny Perez fight and should not have even been in the ring after that. He said himself that he just wanted to cash out against Jones and then retire. Where were the representives after Benn had won a fight? A bit convenient that Jones claims to have sent representatives to a fight Benn lost.

Jones has given 6-7 conflicting accounts for why the fight did not happen. He has ruled himself out as a viable source yet you continue to quote only his side while completely ignoring Team Benn.

It was the wbc's corruption and arrogance that got them into trouble not their incompetence

Evander had already dismissed the idea of fighting Jones by the time of the Jones-Griffin II fight and it is completely irrelavant to want happend with Nunn

And whose fault is that?

Under the rules of the wbc the champion is supposed to pay you challenger 25%. The problem is the challenger can only enforce this ruling with the backing of a name promoter. Its the reson why guys like Brannon and Thornton got shafted with 250k

Jones made a offer to Nunn which would of been way below what Nunn should of got.
Nunn rejects the offer forcing the fight to go to purse bids. Now there is 3m on the table for the fight and the Goosens won with a bid of ONLY 2.4m. That should tell you that Jones bid for the fight was below 2.4m and as a response he lost the purse bid.

Jones complained about his share which was going to be 1.8m so he went back to HBO to raise funds so they coukld try and buy the fight back from the Goosens. The Goosens refused to sell so Jones. who did not want to vacate the belt. vacated it to stop Nunn from getting 600k

Yet you ignore ALL of this so you can talk about Holyfield and Douglas. A fight which did not even come about until around 5 months after Jones had vacated the belt.

Jones' decision due today on Nunn fight

The Cyber Boxing Zone Newswire

 

He made THREE seperate bids for the Nunn fight and lost them ALL.
It was his greed that caused him to lose the fight in the first place.
The fact that he spoke with Holyfield means what exactly?

Yet you constanly move events around to make it look like Jones passed on Nunn to fight Douglas or Holyfield.

And for the record Holyfield was right not to entertain Jones
-He was not a draw. All of his ppv fights had bombed
-He was difficult to deal with
-Brought no belts to the table
-Holyfield would of got no credit for beating a lhw

So now you know how Jones thinks?

He was never going to go ahead with the Holyfield fight. This is the same Jones that wanted 10m to fight Moorer after his loss to Holyfield and he also wanted 10m to fight a hw journeyman called Jeremy Williams

It was his greed that makde him make a lowball offer.
It was his greed that made him bid so low for the purse bid
There was nothing stopping him from bidding close to 3m for that fight
The same thing would happen with Woods and Tarver II

And you can ONLY look at it friom Jones's perspective

Yes. In fact a case could be made that he was even better

Nunn was a better fighter at that point. He won the Liles fight in late 94 and was robbed. When was the last live body that Reggie ever beat? Collins?
He lost by near shut out to Tarver. Who has Tarver ever beaten worth mentioning by near shut out?

Past prime? yes. Badly faded? No. Feel free to go and watch the Nunn-Roch fight

John David Jackson was Woods level and he beat a prime Reggie Johnson.

To keep hold of his IBF belt

You sure about that?

He did not want to give Tarver a rematch. In fact he refused to give him one. It was the reason why Tarver was forced to take his case to the WBC in the first place. If Jones refused to give Tarver the fight he would of then been forced to vacate the wbc belt

Jones wanted the same one sided terms he got for the first fight but Tarver refused Jones's offer forcing the fight to go to bids. King would outbid Jones paltry of 6m bid with a bid for 8m. Jones was set to make less money for the rematch. He could either accept the terms or vacate the belt.

1: He took the Tarver fight because he wanted his belts back so he get back to lining up and knocking down the mandos again.

Unfortunately for him Tarver had the belts. He did not want to fight Tarver he had hoped Griffin would win the Tarver-Griffin fight. It's the reason why he called Griffin obviously hoping to motivate him

Which is why he was dragged into the rematch?

I think I can safely say that Jones did not have the same rosy relationship with the wbc after the Roch court case. So when he was ordered to take the Tarver fight he did what he was told.

All of the above is pure nonsense

-Jones had basically burnt all of his bridges with all of the major networks at that point in time. So he changed tactics and started making fights with HBO friendly fighters to use them to get back onto the network.

There was the Hopkins fight in 96 which fell through over the purse split
His attempts to make a Oscar fight(lol) and he even at one point was looking at a fight with Jermain Taylor

With all of those fights falling through were else did he have to go? HBO was the only network that would pay him millions of dollars he could not get that kind of money anywhere else in the world.

He said himself at the end of episode 1 of the Jones-Calzaghe 24-7 that another loss would mean nothing to him

He is millions of dolllars in debt to the IRS. Do you have any idea how serious that is?

If you say so

Those fights bombed.

Its the reason he went back to HBO. That's the same HBO that had cancelled his contract and fired him from his commentator job because they were just fed up of dealing with him.You are talking about a fighter who took the Hopkins II fight even though he knew there was a good chance he was going to get paid nothing.

Lets all give Jones credit for taking a fight and then quiting in it and while we are at it lets give all the credit in the world for Hopkins amazing performance against Kovalev.

HBO did not back him.

Seth Abraham, the president fof HBO from 80's-00's, is on record saying that it was Jones who stopped the big fights from happening at smw.

http://www.thesweetscience.com/columnists/ron-borges/6327-boxings-mantle-what-is-roy-jones-legacy

The fact that the president of HBO blames Jones for not making the fights should tell you just how legit that pre-Brannon talk was.

Freddie Roach, Liles trainer, said it was Jones who refused to take the Liles fight. A statement completely at odds with O'Hallron accounts

http://sports.espn.go.com/sports/boxing/columns/story?columnist=raskin_eric&id=3485164

And Liles would continue to call for that fight until 99

 

Your welcome:good

 

general zod,

There was a small window of opportunity.

So what are you saying, Gerald was just another guy from a huge list, who Roy was afraid to fight?

1. That's your opinion.

2. Was the Toney fight not a huge fight, with an equal or a higher risk of losing?

I personally, have never been on Cyberboxing before.

But I've recently heard Roy speak about sending advisors to the Malinga fight.

I've recently been watching old interviews etc on YouTube.

So if I can remember where I heard it, I'll upload it for you.

 

general zod,

1. You have said you don't think that Roy ducked him.

2. We've seen quotes from Greg Fritz who stated that Don wanted options.

3. I've seen links from 95, (just after the Paz fight) where Stan Levin said he wasn't prepared to turn Roy over to Don at that time, because he wanted options.

4. HBO publicly backed Roy when he said he'd offered Benn seven figures. You've posted links on numerous occasions where HBO weren't happy with him, and criticised his opposition etc. You'll gladly post things like that, where they ripped him. So we both know that when it came to Roy, they weren't biased in any way. So it's obvious that he was telling the truth in that live interview, otherwise HBO would never have aired it. They must have been shown proof. Roy says he went to them and said "You find me who you think is a suitable opponent, and I'll fight them." Larry Merchant was one of Roy's biggest critics throughout his career, as was Ron Borges, who was part of the panel who were asking him questions during the interview.

1. So why are you so bothered then, if he was shot?

2. Again, I'll try and find you the link. Although to be fair, it's not going to make any difference is it?

I've seen sufficient evidence that tells me that Roy didn't duck him, which you also agreed with at one point.

It falls under the same category.

They got everything they deserved.

No he hadn't, otherwise Jim Thomas wouldn't have welcomed Roy and Fritz over for discussions.

First off, let's get one thing straight.

There's a huge difference in between ducking someone, and dismissing someone, to instead take what you think is a better option for yourself.

A guy who was scared of losing to Michael Nunn, would not have offered to fight Frankie Liles, and gone to Atlanta to ask about fighting Evander Holyfield.

Can you not see how illogical that is?


Roy spoke of wanting to fight Evander after he'd beaten Griffin.

Nunn became the mandatory.

Roy was not happy with the amount he was going to get against Nunn, and he tried to get more.

When that didn't happen, Roy relinquished his belt.

Then a few months later, he went to Atlanta to talk to Thomas and Evander. But Evander wasn't interested at that point.

He then had a fight lined up with Douglas, that paid over three times the amount he would have got for fighting Nunn.

When he didn't end up going through it, he then ended up fighting Hill for $3m.

So he swerved Nunn for $1.8m, and ended up fighting Hill for $3m.


So how is any of that incorrect?

Again, Roy didn't want to fight Nunn, and nobody is arguing otherwise.

But all I'm saying is, if I look at things logically, I form the opinion that Roy didn't duck him out of a fear of losing to him.

 

The part in Red got my attention.
Loudon, you seem very bias and dont take circumstance into account.

 

Let's all laugh at the original poster...

 

Who had Jirov beaten?

 

general zod,

Part 1.

1. I've no arguments with what you've written.

2. The fact that he tried to fight Evander, proves that he didn't fear Nunn.

I haven't moved anything around.

When he didn't get the money that he wanted to fight Nunn, he tried to take on a bigger challenge at HW.

Fair enough.

But it proves that he didn't abuse his HBO contract like like you think he did. He didn't take the path of least resistance.

I don't have to know what he was thinking. Because logic states that if he feared a faded Nunn, he wouldn't have approached Liles and Holyfield, and gone on to fight who he did.

That's your opinion.

Correct. He had a huge ego and he was greedy.

Of course. Because it's Roy's actions that we're focusing on.

But everyone's circumstances are different.

Roy didn't want to fight Nunn and Collins.

Collins didn't want to fight Joe Calzaghe.

Joe didn't want to fight Froch.

Were all of those ducks?

Or did each fighter have specific reasons why they didn't want those fights?


If you really want to know if Roy ducked someone out of a fear of losing them, then look at who he'd fought, or tried to fight instead, and look at who he went on to fight.

List all of the guys who Roy missed, and then ask yourself two questions.

1. Were the guys he missed, better than the best guys who he actually fought.

2. Would they have brought bigger challenges, than the guys who he fought?

Fair enough.

It's not about how good Tarver was, it's the challenge he brought.

When Michael Nunn was prime, he was a better fighter than Tarver ever was. We all know that.

But look at the circumstances.

1997: Nunn was faded, and Roy was 28 years old.

2003: Roy was almost 35, and he'd dropped muscle coming back from HW, to fight an extremely motivated Tarver.

So IMHO, even though Nunn was a better fighter than Tarver when he was prime in the early 90's, Tarver brought a bigger challenge to Roy, than what Nunn would have done in 97.

Okay. He was faded. Roch wasn't great was he?

I only quoted what you'd said.

We know that. But the point is, if Roy had feared him, and not have wanted to have fought him, he wouldn't have. He'd have dropped the belt, or moved divisions etc.

Right.

But what I'm saying is, if he really hadn't have wanted to fight Tarver, he wouldn't have taken the fight.

He didn't have to drop back to LHW to fight him. Nobody held a gun to his head. He could have taken some time out, gone to CW, or fought someone else etc.

Regarding the rematch, again if he really hadn't have wanted it, he could have given the belt up, and gone with other options.

What's happening here is, I'm saying that there was no logic in ducking Nunn, to then go on and fight Tarver and Joe, and all you're saying is, 'yeah, but he didn't have a choice.'

It's just nonsense.

You won't give him credit for anything.

If he hadn't have wanted Tarver and Joe, he wouldn't have fought them.

Right, because all Roy wanted to do, was to fight easy mandatories, right?

Answer the question.

Would a guy who feared a faded Nunn at 28, drop muscle to face Tarver at almost 35?

But he always had options.

Again, you're trying to counter my points, by claiming that Roy had no option but to fight Tarver and Joe etc, which simply isn't true.