Cruisers: Please weigh in at 195, 24h before fight...

Wilder

 

You are mostly correct my friend.
Although what is the evidence Wlad juiced? Also, someone his height & Lewis were likely 220's-even absent weights.
Lewis was not bulked before Manny & was that size, even Ali of the 1960's, who never touched a weight nor PEDs for bulk, ad 2-2 more inches at his peak & he would have been over 220.

 

The evidence is in the profession. Lewis was not very lean at all even when he was light early on in his career he also lifted plenty enjoying it often enough for someone here to have actually seen him bench something like 120kg for 12. There is no proof Ali did not juice he also did plenty of bodyweight work which promotes growth non the less and he was hardly lean at all even in his prime he was about 15% bodyfat.

 

Why isn't Qawi in there?

 

I do not think that your logic holds water in this particular case man.

1) Lewis seems pretty lean in his early fights, but let us say he was ~ 15% body fat as you say.
Being 6' 5" at 15% BF & weighing in the mid 220's is not especially bulky.
Certainly for a HW boxer-just the profession will build some mass, let alone a modern one.

2) He may have benched that amount even when more lean-although rumors are so often exaggerated.

3) It is unreasonable to say "there is no proof Ali did not juice".
Besides that especially with zero circumstantial or remotely suggestive evidence it is only fair & rational to assume he was clean...
PEDs were way less common in boxing during his career.
He never developed more muscle than would be likely naturally. Often when guys are already strong late career bulk is suspect-although sometimes strategic & legitimate. Ali gained weight through his early 20's like any athlete, especially doing bodyweight work would.

4) Ali is his prime was certainly not 15% body fat.
Just looking at him through the '60's in all of his fights, he seems no more than around 10% BF max.

 

1- Lewis was slim in his early fights but not really lean man. He looked quite fluffy and soft by true standards not this "Natural" weight bollocks. Hitting the pads the bag and all the traditional things done in boxing with the exception of the bodyweight work is only letting you hold onto what muscle you have you aren't building nothing unless you have lived like an inactive potato and Lewis could easily have afforded to lose 10-15 lbs vs Bruno even through he was juicing like EVERYONE in that era putting him at I don't know 210ish drop the lifting and the peds and this number shrinks again then if you had him dehydrate you can go lower.

2- If he did I could not tell you, I know he did lift or at least do some kind of resistance training his entire career.

3- Some people at lower levels in the sport where using 100% this is a FACT we can also assume Frank Bruno, Weaver and so on where clean because it never got proven otherwise you can assume either way but if people at that bottom can access PEDs what do you think people at the top are doing? Ali gained weight because he let his bad diet overtake his training, simple.

4- If you have been at 10% you would not say that. Ali was easily 15% BF vs Liston, Williams and Machen he had abs but was soft everywhere he seemed to store all his weight in his legs and again you drop 20lbs of water weight maybe only like 10lbs if you train him back down to 200lbs and he makes CW easy.

 

Alright it is a fun challenge to discuss points amicably & in detail Kamikaze!

1) I agree with your description of what various training tends to do.
Your meaning is ambiguous re: "natural" weight, which usually is meant to indicate what someone would be PED free & training properly-but itself means with rigorous weight training to some, not others.
You gotta show me photos to indicate that Lewis was "quite fluffy".
I would say for a HW 15% does not make the description anyway.

But they need not be very lean anyway-"Lewis could "easily afford" to lose 10-15 lbs. vs. Bruno?
If you mean could without a detriment, maybe...But nobody would say he was at all overweight.

I have the strongest disagreement to the extreme statement that everybody was using-in any era.
That makes no sense-I can point to numerous say people over 6', or woman taller than men-that does not mean that the average human is that tall or men are not usually somewhat taller...Arguments about individual cases & that only stress motivations & ease of doing it, not the opposite, in no way even paint good argument about what percentage used. And what % dabbled or did more.
Also many like Lewis were not even heavy compared to much earlier generations relative to their height-especially if you have Lewis at 15% BF-None of which remotely implicates PED use.
I do wish you would reconsider insisting everyone used.
It is like the opposite position, nobody did, or everyone never proven to do never touched the stuff!

2) As someone who has lifted for years, Lewis would likely have had more muscle pre-Manny if he could do 120 KG free weight bench X 12 (proper form, full ROM) reps! Especially if he was as you insist 15% BF in the 220's...Especially for a man 6' 5" (also considering longer levers make pushing exercises harder than pulling for leverage), the only way that is likely is if he say had somewhat disproportionate mass on his upper body, ala Holyfield.
Now when he weighed in the 240's & had visibly more muscle, that may well be realistic.


3) Sure some people at lower level used drugs. But that does *'nothing* to suggest either the rate of PED usage among them, or at the higher levels. That many could get it does not suggest how common it was to use, let alone the extreme assumption everyone used.

Also there is an internal contradiction in your reasoning. How can you both insist everybody used in an era...Then say site guys that were never caught & say we can assume that they are clean?

Weaver you could argue was the era just before what you were referring to.
And I dunno if he ever used. But even though he was nicknamed "Hercules", he came in at 6' 1" & ~ 207 lbs.: he was well defined/lower BF than most HWs, like Holyfield-but did not have an unusual amount of muscle even then.

Now Holyfield acquired more upper body muscle & we have good evidence he juiced.
Bruno? Again I dunno-he was "at the edge" of what someone with a large bone structure might achieve naturally. As was Tyson & Tua.
But he was sculpted at 6' 3" 247 lbs. vs. Tyson-more muscle than most contemporaries, so at least more likely to have used...
But without any other indication...It is more fair & sensible to withhold judgement.

4) I do not need to have been 10% BF to know what it looks like. There are endless indications online, photos, people I know...
I do not see Ali as "soft" looking anytime in his first career.
His legs were not very defined, but he had little fat. Like the average NBA player is ~ 10% BF, but most do not have very defined legs.

Sometimes things are deceptive...My onetime workout partner was not many years out of the same University, wrestled there, had a 30" waist-& was clearly not more than ~ 10% BF....Mine was then over 40"! Only in some part from having a larger skeleton. But he had little definition, & while I was not as high BF as my waist would indicate, it was *also* not nearly as low as me having a faint, asymmetrical 4 pack would suggest to most.
Whether because I was a sit up champ when young & lean, or just my natural distribution of subcutaneous vs. visceral fat, I had some abs when i was likely ~ high 20's % BF!

But with dehydration alone Ali could easily be a Cruiser?
No doubt, but Tyson could have too-& been totally dominant.
Anyone up to early 220's unless really lean or tended to come in dehydrated like Foreman could!
But the money & glory was not nearly the same.

 

Not being rude man. That’s too long for this argument to address point by point. The point I am making is most boxers use drugs, at the lowest level that if journeyman have used in the 60-70s I don’t see why at the highest level they wouldn’t be so it’s an educated assumption.

Most HWs have excess weight is the other point I’m making what you think they could weigh, body fat, frame ect is all on you to decide for yourself. I think if they subsisted some of there training and weren’t being mislead by the times they could come in lower then you’d expect with the right regime and eating. This wouldn’t be what they’d train on but if they dedicated time away from boxing strictly for the purpose of recomp before returning I cannot see why Lennox Lewis could not come in at 210 on fight night same with Foreman and Ali.

Also I don’t know when Lennox benched it I never said he did it young did I?

 

You may not have as much free time as I have (except for yesterday, a boring 17 hour day working the NYC primary election), so if you do perhaps go back & reply to each point.
But if not, at least realize you made contradictory claims-again you said everyone was using among a generation of boxers.
But to refresh your memory, you wrote that Bruno & Weaver did not-which both is at odds with your claim, & ironically we cannot know if they did not.

Bruno was more likely to have used just considering pure size-although only 2" taller was also sculpted looking when he weighed about 40 lbs. MORE than Weaver in his prime!
The HBO special about Dokes first fight with Weaver refers to Weaver's "massive" size & muscles everywhere, although he weighed in less than 210 lbs. Things have changed a lot since the early '80's!
I did not know the circumstances of their 2 controversial fights...
[url]https://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=weaver+dokes[/url]

Mainly I hope you eventually realize that there is no evidence that *most* boxers used PEDs-then or now.
Showing some journeymen used drugs in the 60's-70's would be a very good indication that some do now.
But you made an illogical leap to saying that some using then suggests most all use now.
Might as well say woman improved their world records at a faster rate than men (PEDs a part of this) then, so woman must either still do so, or must have overtaken men & are stronger & faster now! This analogy shows you that assuming something radical-most all drugs up-from a few people using years ago is just not a rational conclusion.

It is possible, but making very general statements about the culture or penalties just does not support the extreme claim that most used.
Individual examples also mean nothing-if I showed you many woman stronger than many men, would that be evidence that woman are stronger overall?

Please rewrite your second paragraph-the grammar & word choice is confusing, I cannot fully understand what you meant to say.
But from what I can tell you meant that those old HWs could have come in lighter, largely from day before weigh ins & rehydration?
If so-sometimes! Ali could have always made 210. Foreman? That is more dubious, since apparently he already was (foolishly & unnecessarily under the guidance of Saddler) already dehydrated at fight time-he carried more muscle than Ali, was already lean, he would have lost something having to hit 210.

Lewis? Before Stewart (when he added muscle) when he was in the 220's he could have easily made 210 & rehydrated.
But without rehydration & at 6' 5" that would have been pushing what would be useful-HWs do not generally benefit from coming in at the BF levels of marathon runners!

You did seem to indicate Lewis did that lifting/weight when young, see your post from 11:49 PM on Sunday. In part is says...
"...early on in his career he also lifted plenty enjoying it often enough for someone here to have actually seen him bench something like 120kg for 12".

 

You may not have as much free time as I have (except for yesterday, a boring 17 hour day working the NYC primary election), so if you do perhaps go back & reply to each point.
But if not, at least realize you made contradictory claims-again you said everyone was using among a generation of boxers.
But again, you wrote that Bruno & Weaver did not-which both is at odds with your claim, & ironically we cannot know if they did not.
But Bruno was more likely to have used just by pure size-although only 2" taller was also sculpted looking when he weighed about 40 lbs. MORE than Weaver in his prime!
The HBO special about Dokes first fight with Weaver refers to Weaver's "massive" size & muscles everywhere, although he weighed in less than 210 lbs. Things have changed a lot since the early '80's!

Mainly I hope you eventually realize that there is no evidence that *most* boxers used PEDs-then or now.
Showing some journeymen used drugs in the 60's-70's would be a very good indication that some do now.
But you made an illogical leap to saying that some using then suggests most all use now.
Might as well say woman improved their world records at a faster rate than men (PEDs a part of this) then, so woman must either still do so, or must have overtaken men & are stronger & faster now! This analogy shows you that assuming something radical-most all drugs up-from a few people using
It is possible, but making very general statements about the culture or penalties just does not support the extreme claim that most used.
Individual examples also mean nothing-if I showed you many woman stronger than many men, would that be evidence that woman are stronger overall?

Please re-read your short comment

 

Ugh- Done

 

I do not think you should express disgust Kamikaze.
I was polite & said if you are too busy to reply it is fine.

I asked you to clarify something where the words & grammar did not make sense.
I showed where you made some unsupported statements & assumptions about everyone or almost all using PEDs.
Also Illustrating how you exempting 2 boxers from using-despite your claims about that generation all being users-was you contradicting your own logic.

This seems to have triggered your defenses & ego.
Now that I am so brief-& there is no pressure to establish your case or even respond-I hope you will privately consider how your reaction is not in accords good relations here or with "[url]The Golden Rule[/url]".