Cus D'amato - No Swarmer Beats Foreman?

Swarmers are allowed to box...see Duran and Pacquiao.

 

There are other variables as well. Joe boxed Foreman in the rematch but was also a shot fighter. His legs were gone.

 

This is your take on it. Lots of people combine the two. Others will think differently. And this is why these kinds of generalisations are unhelpful.

Says who? When was this written down in stone?

generalisation.

As you know, and I respect that you know boxing, regardless of style, there is a right tactic in order to be successful. It is not as simple as saying this kind of guy can’t be successful. Levels and tactics come into this.

which is why I doubt the legitimacy of the absolutisms of this claim.

 

Tonto on a break again?

 

Not every volume puncher is a swarmer. For example, Pacquiao is a very intense high volume hitter but isn't particularly good at actually fighting on the inside. However, you can't be an effective swarmer without throwing a high volume of punches, otherwise you will likely lose the decision since you're primarily only good at close range and the larger opponent will inevitably outland you at any other range.

Not stone, paper. It was written in the Quran 1400 years ago.

By all means, name some swarmers and brawlers who were gunshy, passive, and who had weak chins.

What tactic could a short aggressive swarmer use to beat Foreman? And for the love of Allah, please do not reference fights where Foreman's opponent fails to win a single round and gets knocked out.

 

Counter punches beat George.

A shorter aggressive fighter would need to both crowd George and counter him.

If Tommy Morrison could do it with the older version then a better fighter than Morrison can do it with the younger version.

There is no need to rule out every single shorter fighter.

 

Facts legend it is crazy to rule out a short fighter and yes tom did beat george why is he left out for doing that since he wasnt short makes no sense he fought like mike but not as good a counter puncher

Cause the quote goes like a short fighter who comes to george well tom didnt just come to george and tom fought short since he fought as a style like mike which means that he was fighting from a crounced position at time and waited countered threw wide punches with combos thats the same way mike fought

Thats how I know these crazy robots aren't watching their just repeating others who don't watch cause mike never just came ahead and stood there in his young days he fought just like tom did but with more speed combos and power

Its no way mike wound lose to george when george was real slow and to telegraphed so why is it these dumb quotes like mike would be hit with uppercuts and being pushed like that would work for george being repeated still

These dumb quotes have been exposed as just that dumb quotes years ago george needs to fight better to land on mike did he fight like a lennox when he was young no so can anybody explain how he hits let alone beats mike

Tom for a fact would ko george with the same plan he used with the old one the difference is a young george is way easier to hurt and pick shots on

Only a crazy person picks george to beat Mike when he never would land on him
Mike beats him with no trouble and this is fact from video


For george to beat Mike he would have to punch with better tech not waste punches and not be easy to read george was none of these things and never did he fight like george so agian how does he hit mike fighting like he does nobody hit mike often who fought sloopy and easy to read

All of this is fact from video we have no video of george fighting like lennox or even tillis the ali knockoff which they had speed wasnt easy to read and wasnt sloopy

Its either these people never seen Mike
Don't like mike
Think that george fought different then video shows

Likes george so much that he is better then video shows

Or have seen Mike doesnt like him and picks george

Or thinks mikes fought like joe which he didnt until he felloff which was late 80s early 90s which is still not the same way joe fought

Either of these reasons do not make george beat mike he has to for a fact fight like I said its no choice its not a liking the fighter over another its what gave Mike trouble and george wasnt it no slow easy to read sloopy puncher gave Mike alot of trouble

 

1. That’s a big jump even for you Chok Young Foreman and Old Foreman were NOTHING alike.

2. Did you ever watch Foreman VS Morrison by any chance?

 

Foreman was a force of nature in his youth. Explosive. But never really paced himself. As an older fighter, he really could pace himself but was that bit slower and more controlled. What one version lacked the other version had. It was the same guy. I don’t think it impossible that A good enough fighter could beat both versions with the same tactic. Tell me why not?

I am old enough to have watched it as an adult on tv at the time it happened. Are you?

 

This. People are getting too focused on size and styles while other factors are just as important in winning a fight.

Foreman was a very hungry and active fighter going into the Frazier title fight while Frazier wasn't very active and was even thinking of retirement if he couldn't land an Ali rematch. Frazier simply didn't view Foreman as much of a threat and tried to get in shape and prepare for Foreman at the last minute and it didn't work.

Here is Frazier talking about using the wrong tactics against Foreman


Joe Frazier still can't believe it. "Six times to the canvas, that's some bad trip," he said yesterday. "I fought a pretty dumb fight. But, I'm not gonna die just because I lost one. Now it back to the drawing board."

"George Foreman is a wonderful gentleman," he said "I think he'll be a great heavyweight champion ... until I take the title back." Frazier isn't working in the gym these days. He does roadwork and plans to return to ring work in early March, hopeful of a rematch with the new champion.

It wasn't until two weeks ago that Frazier saw a television rerun of the second-round knockout by Foreman, a 7-1 underdog against the heretofore unbeatable champion.

"I couldn't believe that was me," he said, shaking his head. "My hands were down, not protecting my chin like I always do, I got hit with a wicked shot and my old hothead took over. Instead of stepping back and clearing my head, I went after him. I got hit and hit and hit."

"If my teeth hadn't sliced my lip, I would've kept coming," he said. "George might've knocked me down six more times, but I would have kept getting up and trying."

Throughout the conversation, Joe kept slapping himself in the belly, saying

"just want to stay in shape, keep the weight down until my next fight comes."

He was accused of being overweight in Jamaica. At 214 he was nine pounds heavier than when he outpointed Ali in their multi-million dollar showdown of 1971.

"Maybe the extra couple of pounds would've bothered me if the Foreman fight had gone six or eight rounds," he said, "but not a two-rounder. I could carry a thousand pounds for two rounds."
https://imgur.com/roazEU1
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Here is a piece on Dick Saddler and George himself talking about the upcoming title fight with Joe Frazier.

Dick Saddler, who as Foreman's manager and surrogate father groomed his young scrapper into the boxer he is today, wants Foreman to "Take charge" in the ring although he is realistic enough to know that no one dominates smokin' Joe Frazier.

"With Frazier", began Saddler, who was once a nightclub singer, "you gotta take charge in that ring. They can talk all they want about this style or that style, good boxers or hard punchers. Frazier takes care of all kinds of guys, not matter what they do. You know why? I'll tell you why. Once that bell rings and Frazier comes out, the first thing he does is show the other guy the ring belongs to him. It's like he's saying, 'I'm the boss and you got no business in here.'"

Despite the fears, real or imagined, about the rock-hard Frazier punches, Foreman boldly approaches the challenge. "My goal is to win," he confides. "We both have a lot in common. We both have Black managers and trainers, we have both worked hard to get where we are and we are both former Olympic champions. But I've been fighting all my life and I'm not scared of Frazier. When I was growing up, we used to jump on a rich boy in a minute."

Chuckling after the tough ring of his last comment, Foreman paused a moment and related what he thought to be an appropriate analogue of Frazier's boxing career.

"Frazier reminds me of the bull-dogs that used to fight in pits back home. Each time the winner had a tough fight, he suffered a little. After a certain number of years go by, that dog was good for nothing. Frazier has been busted across his head a lot. Each time he went 15 rounds, he has suffered somewhat. All of this is in my favor."

Foreman, who will get about $300,000 for the fight, his biggest pay day, thinks he can match strength with Frazier because the way each fighter beat tough veteran Scrap-iron Johnson. Johnson rusted in the seventh round of the Foreman bout, "but it took Frazier 10 rounds to beach Scrap-iron, and he really made Joe fight," beamed Foreman.

"I know for a fact that I'm not the underdog. If I win this fight, a lot of different things will open up for me. Everything is at stake for me when I fight for this title. I'll whip his head until it ropes like okra."
https://imgur.com/uJXF4NX
https://imgur.com/XVC26WY

From the same piece here is Frazier giving his plans on how he expects to fight Foreman.

Frazier, guaranteed about $800,000 for the title fight, acknowledges Foreman's strength but cautioned, "You also must know how to rebound once a man hits you hard. A long reach won't do any good." Frazier said he will move around more than he usually does when he fights Foreman "because I know he'll be trying to hold me and push me around."

Refusing to become overconfident, Frazier has set a punishing training pace for himself to drop from 214 pounds to his 205-pound fighting weight at Kingston. Pride is his prime motivator for the Foreman bout. He wants to fight Muhammad Ali once more for no love but much money. I want $3.5 million but my manager Yank Durham is trying to get me $4 million. That's OK."

Although reams of red tape may put the return bout off until late this year, the suspense is building with Frazier, not Ali, taking the verbal lead this time.

"I don't respect Ali. His name is Clay," Frazier spurts. "And I can call him Clay and stand over him and watch him fall. The next time, hes going out for the count."

"I just can't figure out how that ****** (Ali) got up when I hit him in the 15th round. He surprised me. But you better believe that win makes boxing to me all the more worthwhile - all the aggravation and running.

"Foreman says he wants to live his life dining with kings and queens, traveling all over the world with two bunnies (Playboy) on his arms and all these other nice things. But he forgets, I like these things, too. The title is here with me. I want to retire still being the heavyweight champion of the world."
https://imgur.com/sfavD81
https://imgur.com/fDp8PFk

 

Cool, but completely irrelevant to the point.
You're practicing 'whataboutism'
Don't do it.

 

Excellent content. Dick Sadler saying Frazier “took care of all styles of fighters” is an example of “style advantage” still not yet being the issue among real fight people that the later internet generation of non participants believe it to be it always was. It wasn’t.

 

A swarmer who could beat Foreman, Joe Louis.

Louis very much was an aggressive pressure fighter.

 

Lots of technically sound swarmers that box.

 

I agree. And so would Cus.

And that would be a more believable quote from him.