Cus D'amato - No Swarmer Beats Foreman?

I don't know, maybe because they're completely different fighters with different strengths and weaknesses?

No. But when I watched it, it was clear as day Morrison abandoned his swarming tactics, circled Foreman, looking to land big shots, then retreat. I have absolutely no idea why you bought this fight up, because neither Frazier, nor Dempsey, Marciano, Tyson, etc fought like this so your first argument that Morrison's tactics would've worked on a younger Foreman, is meaningless.

 

It wasn’t an argument. It was an opinion. I am happy to hear your opinion. A better version of Morrison beats a better version of Foreman. In any case, the younger version was only better in the early part of a fight. George himself believed the second version was better anyway. You going to argue with George?

That isn’t true, you are talking about the same guy who was susceptible to counters in both carnations. One time he could pace himself. One time he couldn’t. The strengths were the same. He was always big. He was always strong. He could always punch.

 

To most it's pretty clear what the term covers. It's certainly not Joe Louis

For myself and most others it will be Tyson/Frazier/Marciano/Dempsey. It really doesn't need to get technical in attempts to cloud the topic.

No idea but you'd think he's a lot deeper in significant boxing circles than you and i and would have a much better idea than either of us.

There you go getting all technical. Just go with the names i provided if you are having trouble with a simple concept.

Have any great boxers of any style not counter punched at times?

Apply the KISS principle and stay with the guys nominated.

A. Joe was a swarmer.
B. If you disagree go back to point A.

Where there's smoke there is usually fire. There's some smoke.

 

Well seeing as Foreman has made some absurd claims in his later years, than yes I would happily dispute it

Foreman has also said the following

“when I was young, on my best day, I feel like I could have beaten anyone who ever fought. When I came back, I did my best and tried to represent middle aged men everywhere."

Strengths were definitely not the same. Young Foreman was much faster, had a sheer physical ability that older Foreman lacked, was frighteningly adept at cutting the ring off, wasn't carrying 30-50 pounds of lard, oh yeah and he was about 20 years younger The Younger Foreman was superior and you know it.

Joe Frazier said the following

“Foreman in the 70's was something really special. He cut the ring off better than anyone that size ever had or will, he hit like a bus, and he was fast. He could box too, don't think he couldn't. George when he came back was slow, and couldn't cut off a football field."


Gil Clancy, his trainer back then, said:

“George better today than he was in 1973? No way!"


Clancy also said:

“Although George had some success at an old age fighting in a more controlled manner, the comeback version was never as good as the original seek and destroy version."

Ali said:

“George when he was young was the third best fighter I ever saw, behind me and Sonny Liston. When he came back he was a different fighter, time had took a lot from him."


Emmanuel Steward said:

“Foreman in 1973 was just about unbeatable."


Monte Cox, the boxing historian, says:

“The Foreman who fought at a measured pace just was not the real George Foreman."


Cus D’Amato once said:

“no swarming heavyweight who ever lived would defeat 1973 George Foreman.”

But again, none of this matters because even if both versions of Foreman shared the same strengths and weaknesses, MORRISON DID NOT SWARM FOREMAN. FRAZIER, MARCIANO, AND DEMPSEY WOULD'VE NEVER FOUGHT FOREMAN LIKE THAT IN A MILLION YEARS.

 

That's a quality post with great info.

 

Morrison did not "crowd and counter" Foreman, he used hit and run tactics with lateral movement. Did you even watch the fight? There isn't a single person on this forum who will agree with you that Morrison used a swarming, crowding, countering style to beat Foreman.

That wasn't a 70's Foreman either. They fought completely different. This is like arguing Leon Spinx beating Ali is proof that someone who fought similar but better than Spinx could beat prime Ali.

 

Means a lot coming from you JT!

 

We are both in agreement here. This is why “swarmer” is a very unhelpful generalisation.

No he did not. I do not believe Cus used the word “swarmer” and there is no record (that anyone can find) of him using this word or even making this comment.

 

Why would it be impossible that someone who fought similar but better & harder hitting than Spinks wouldn’t beat a better version of Ali?

 

Cus wouldnt say that he would see joe was way to easy to hurt and small was a lw he would be pushed away to mutiple slow but hard shots joe defense was bad and he moved bad he wouldnt be able to get away in time

 

I didn't say that it would be impossible.

I'm saying that you can't make assumptions based on boxer A beating a very old version of boxer B who fought completely different from when he was younger. It's incredibly flawed.

Swarmer doesn't mean you can't throw a counter punch and just mindlessly swing away with a barrage of punches. Is that seriously what you thought it meant?

 

it means different things to different people. This is why “swarmer” is unhelpful..and not used by boxing people back in the day. There are no absolutes.

That’s good. We are in agreement. There are no absolutes.

Using “swarmer” is flawed. Swarmer type generalisations are as unhelpful as “style advantage” which is often misleading. About as misleading as saying Cus used the term.

 

True but there's none in HW history who could do that to Foreman.

 

He may be right, tough one to judge, imo the version of Dempsey that beat Jess Willard would probably have the best chance because he fought like a possessed demon and it might swerve George long enough for Jack to get the KO, but still probably a long shot

 

I have not seen a single person say that about swarmers. You are basically attacking an argument nobody made, a straw man.

Well regardless of whether you think the term is misleading, Morrison did not beat Foreman by "crowding and swarming him". No offense, but you either didn't watch the fight or I have to seriously question your ability to analyze fights. And old Foreman fought completely different.