Cus D'amato - No Swarmer Beats Foreman?

He doesn’t have to resemble Morrison! That’s the bit you don’t understand. Frazier adapted within his style for one opponent. He made adjustments in order to win. Morrison adapted within his style. He made adjustments in order to win. The two don’t have to resemble each other.

They just have to show they did different things against certain types of fighters.

All I had to demonstrate is that aggressive fighters can vary and tweak the way they do things too. That they do not have to be fixed to always fighting exactly the same way each and every time.

I cannot believe you think an aggressive fighter doesn’t use strategy within his style.

it’s a pity. You think your right about this. That I am proven wrong.

when we are both talking about different things.

you are talking in terms of Rock Paper Scissors. And boxing is not like that.

Which is why trainers are in high demand to create strategies. …And in the case of this thread, unlikely to talk in absolutes on unverified quotes that nobody can find.

 

Chok, you claimed the axiom of swarmers failing to beta Foreman is false and cited Morrison as an example since Morrison beat Foreman. Morrison isn't a swarmer. You claimed Morrison crowded and pressured Foreman which isn't remotely true, he used a completely different style to defeat him. You even desperately tried to point out Morrison was shorter than Foreman so this somehow puts him in the category.

I asked for an example of someone using a swarming, attacking style to defeat Foreman. So I humored you, and you brought up Morrison vs Foreman and insisted it was valid. When I pressured you, you claimed that Morrison was still swarming but had simply changed tactics within his style.

So I rightfully asked you to show me Frazier, Rocky, etc using similar tactics in any of their fights. You couldn't. Therefore, the only logical conclusion is that Morrison isn't a valid example of how a swarmer could defeat Foreman. Your not even being consistent with your own logic!

This is your problem. You keep attacking arguments I never made. I don't even think you're doing this on purpose, I think you're genuinely confused.

I never said a boxer cannot tweak the things they want to do.

I never said a boxer, even an aggressive swarmer, cannot use strategy within his style.

What I'm ****ing saying, is that a swarmer cannot beat Foreman with their usual crowding, swarming, attacking style. That's it.

If you claim Frazier, Tyson, etc could beat Foreman by using a completely different style, that's an entirely separate conversation.

Using lateral movement, sticking and moving behind a jab, throwing a few light punches and then circling away and backing off immediately is NOT how a swarmer fights. And once again, if you believe Frazier, Dempsey, etc could beat Foreman using those tactics/adjustments you need to show me them using those tactics. That's all there is to it. Nobody beat Foreman by crowding and pressuring him with a swarming style, that's why this conversation came up in the first place.

You keep talking about different things. You keep changing the subject, shifting the goal post, and creating straw man arguments.

It's quite simple.

The statement is that nobody beats 70's Foreman with a crowding, aggressive, swarming style. It never happened. If you think this statement is incorrect, then you need to show that boxers who fought that way could win fighting that way.

If you bring an example of someone beating Foreman who ISN'T using a crowding, aggressive, swarming style, then it isn't relevant to the conversation.

If you bring up 90's Foreman, it ISN'T relevant to the conversation.

Do you get it now? It isn't nuclear physics.

Hence why Eddie Futch had Frazier completely change his style in the rematch.

If Foreman fought today, there isn't a single trainer alive who would watch his footage and then think that his boxer could win with a swarming style. For ****s sake, Morrison, Alex Stewart, and Shannon Briggs were all big, heavy hitters who completely changed their style to run away from a fat old man. What does that tell you? Every trainer in the world knew attacking Foreman directly was suicide regardless of the historical accuracy of the quote.

 

no they didn’t change their style. They adapted to the situation. Within a style. You try too hard to see things in a fixed way. It makes no allowance for nuances.

The bottom line is Cus never said these things in the way you interpret it.

All things equal, yes it is.

nobody is a swarmer. It’s a generalisation.

no. He used tactics within a style.

well I was not incorrect in saying George was taller was I? George was taller than Morrison wasnt he? He was heavier too.

I didn’t have to. They can make adjustments within their style. This is what is wrong with these fixed ideas of the big guy always meeting a smaller guy who walks into all his punches. There are options here. There are grey areas and tactics worth considering. They don’t need to be proved. It’s just an opinion. Okay, if you say the case is two guys trying to do the same thing, bigger guy wins. I agree. But it’s not really that simple is it? There are levels and types and variations within styles. Career timing. There is always a way when you are talking about gifted fighters.

 

Those boxers were all come forward sluggers fighting on the front foot. Boxers that fit that description do not normally use cautious lateral movement and lots of jabbing. Show me any fights other than the Foreman matches where they use those tactics, or any boxer known to be a an aggressive slugger employing such tactics on a regular basis.

It's been 18 pages. Do you have any concrete evidence he didn't say it?

Then why the hell did you call Morrison a swarmer and claimed he crowded Foreman...?

First you say Morrison is a swarmer, then nobody is a swarmer, now you're saying he simply used tactics within the swarming style? You're all over the place.

They were close to the same height. When two boxers are of a similar height and reach, it usually doesn't make sense to maintain constant pressure on the opponent unless the other guy is a counter puncher or mover. It doesn't matter because Morrison wasn't swarming anything, he was throwing quick flurries and jabs and then immediately tried to get out the way. Only in your bizzaro world did Morrison "swarm" Foreman. I dare you to make a poll.

Yes you do have to. You made a claim: swarmers sticking and moving and using lateral movement are tactics within their style. This suggests it's far from uncommon to see boxers normally labeled as swarmers using said tactics. The burden of proof is on you to show that swarmers do that every once in a while. There are more than a dozen well known boxers that fit that description at heavyweight, so by all means, tell me just 5 fights where swarming heavyweights fought like Morrison, Briggs, Stewart, etc.

Not once in this entire thread did I say that a smaller guy has no other options but to walk straight into a big guys punches.

Again, you are making a claim and then failing to back it up. If you want to cop out and say it's your "opinion" then I will leave the discussion right here if you want to just make random claims pulled from your ass with no validity to them. What grey areas? Which tactics? SHOW. ME.

Once again, I didn't say that's all there is to it. I strongly urge you to respond to what I wrote instead of creating a straw man to attack. Final warning.

Sometimes a bad matchup is a bad matchup. I don't think Jerry Quarry beats Ali in 100 attempts no matter what part of his career you choose or what tactics/variations he employs. I don't think Frazier ever beats 70's Foreman. I don't think Arreola ever beats Vitali even with brass knuckles.

 

Someone give their list of the top 10 all time heavyweight swarmers.

 

Tommy Morrison didn't swarm George Foreman. He surpingly used smart movement and won. He obviously didn't beat the best iteration of Foreman. Also, it's logical to assume Cus was alluding to a relatively prime Foreman as when he made a similar observation about the invincibility of Ali. He lived to see him lose five times.

 

Vitali was kinda a swarmer and I think he'd beat Foreman

 

Yep, Tommy came in and then got out of the way very quickly. He did the exact opposite of “swarming” and fought the smartest fight of his career.

 

Well according to some remedial posters, Morrison swarmed Foreman all night...!

 

Can you imagine what would have happened had that been the case? Morrison wasn't exactly known for his chin or durability.

He was petrified of Foreman but needed the fight so the tactics he adopted were his only option. And his only chance of winning.

 

He wasn't a swarmer.
Dempsey,Marciano,Frazier,Tyson were swarmers.

 

Except Tyson was most comfortable at mid range.

 

Frazier was past his prime and was "shopworn". He left everything he had in the ring at the FOTC on March 8, 1971...

 

Yes.

 

All of Rocky's best opponents (Louis, Walcott, Charles, Moore) were shopworn and had been through several wars before Rocky faced them lol.