Being a OZZIE its hard to gauge a great wrestler as we dont really have it here...Especially not at a school level growing up.. But those stats definetly paint a picture.He was obviously a outstanding Wrestler.I know i hear over and over again from Rogan and co about this guy and that guy being a all american wrestler but dont hear many that have had success like Lesnars stats say.
Yes, they are. James Toney has been at the top of boxing since 1991, almost two decades spanning around 80 fights. And he has never been stopped, and never been close to being stopped. Now, this proud warrior who has taken so much time, will, effort and punishment to construct that record is going to be put in an unwinnable situation, against an unfair opponent, and unceremoniously dumped onto the mat, suffer the indignity of someone sitting on top of him, and then being crudely and brutally hammer-fisted into a bloody, pitiful mess. Toney will be humiliated, Randy Couture will be slightly embarrassed at being made participate in such a pointless, easy and unfair contest, and the press will see this for what it is. You can spin this any way you want, talk about making money and clever marketing blah blah bull****, but if the UFC as an organization and MMA as a sport want to retain and improve credibility, then this fight is a MAJOR error. As I said, if Tito Ortiz suddenly turned up at a boxing match and said to the media "I'll murder Quitali Bitchko, tell Jose Suliman I'll take his WBC belt by KO anytime", do you think Suliman would sanction that fight??! Obviously not. He knows that boxing is a sport with a proud history and standards, and this would never be devalued and disregarded purely for the purposes of a freakshow designed to make a quick buck. One of the stigmas attached to MMA is that of the freakshow, of an audience which wants 7ft monsters pitched against sumo wrestlers, of WWE style corny 'bad blood' matches where fights are organized due to the public dislike of the fighters. If MMA is ever to merit inclusion in the Olympics as has been spoken of, and if it is ever to rival boxing as a legitimate, serious sport, then it has to do everything possible to shake off these detrimental dated connotations. And allowing a complete MMA novice to get pulverized by an enormously experienced ex-champ and current top 10 fighter purely because he is a big name is just pathetic. Let's wait and observe the fight and the fall-out, see who is right. :good
WTF? How does showing the whole point of the sport dent its reputation? Couture will take Toney down and GNP/sub him because that's what works best. The UFC has proven that the most important thing is to be able to take a guy down or to stop a takedown. If you can't stop it, then the next best thing is to be able to defend subs. If you can't do either than you're not any good and you ****ing lose. THAT'S THE WHOLE POINT OF THE SPORT.
if danny batchelder can hang with toney at this stage, coulture might be able to beat toney at an all standing affair (so long as he can dirty box too).
I Like this thread. I take the point about Lesners wrestling record I didn't know about that. I'd just like to throw in, that due to the incredibly high financial rewards of heavyweight boxing, i.e. fighters earning millions per fight. that James Tony is or has been at the top of an absolutely colossal pyramid of other fighters. I only mention this because I get the sense that some people don't think much of boxing or boxers. To get to the top you really have to be something special. One other thing, has it occurred to anyone, that this fight is going to bring over millions of boxing viewers and media interest. and according to many here they are going to see Randy dump Tony on his ass and submit him in 20 seconds. So from many people's first experience of MMA could possibly be one of the most boring fights ever. even for an MMA fan like myself fight that end like that are incredibly boring and frustrating. Happily like quite a few others, I think Tony is going to flatten Randy. Because Randy will have never come across anyone who has punching skills in the same league as Tony.
I can see it going either way, the obvious woul dbe Randy immediately taking down Toney and ground and pounding him out or for 5 rounds, but I could also see Randy being an idiot and trying to out strike Toney. Randy has had great lateral movement and head movement against some dangerous opponants and I can see him trying this on Toney, if that is the case I also see him going to sleep very early in the fight. Bottomline is the whole fight is dependant on what randy wants to do.
who has toney put to sleep lately? some of u guys are ignoring that toney is 40 years old and has been plodding and severely out of shape for some years and lacks power at HW
It doesn't matter. Toney can KO Couture just because his punches are so accurate and land so cleanly. Most MMA fighters don't have the chin or striking defense of pro boxers.
If Toney and his "check kicks" can't compete with the 45 year old Randy, he just needs to go away. I hope Randy grounds his arse in the first 20 seconds than beat him silly on the ground until he gives up. I'm sick of listening to his mouth full of marbles (I've been hit too many times) just that comes from his mouth. Screw a tune up fight, either jump into the fire, get your ass burned as you go back to boxing or shut up all us MMA fans that think you have no business bring your "check kicks" to mma. Toney WAS a great boxer but this is fighting now and I don't he belongs. But if any MMA fighter is dumb enough to stand with him for more that 30 seconds, he could knock them out. But it's MMA for a reason.
A couple of things. 1) Being a great boxer doesn't automatically make you a hard puncher. Toney hasn't had a one punch KO since he was at 168. He hasn't stopped a decent pro since Holyfield in 2003, and that was a huge accumulation of punches. These MMA guys do spar with pro boxers and I highly doubt that Toney will be the hardest puncher Couture has ever faced. 2) Punching in a boxing ring is NOT like punching in MMA. As anyone who has ever tried it knows, you must change your stance and your footwork and your balance when you allow kicks and takedowns. Toney will not be able to sit down on his punches if he's getting kicked and preparing to sprawl which will negate a lot of his punching experience since that experience is from a totally different environment. The way I see this fight going is that either a) Couture takes him down straight away and beats the crap out of him b) Couture clinches and puts him against the cage and dirty boxes him for a while with some knees and elbows and then takes him down c) Couture decides to stand for a while and throws some kicks and punches and then takes Toney down d) Couture decides to show his boxing skills and balls and stands and punches with Toney. Only in scenario d does Toney have a prayer and even then IF HE HURTS COUTURE BUT DOESN'T STOP HIM COUTURE WILL BE ABLE TO CLINCH AND TAKE HIM DOWN TO SAVE HIMSELF. This is where Toney's lack of one punch power makes him much less likely to ever do anything in MMA than a guy like Mayorga. The fact that Toney's boxing style is so suited to the rules of boxing (sideways stance, leg forward) makes his experience in boxing either useless (because he'll have to change it up to be effective in mma) or a negative (if he falls back into his boxing stance and gets leg kicked/taken down over and over). There are guys that can make a much more legit move from boxing to mma, but James Toney is not one of them and certainly isn't against someone like Randy Couture.
:happy:happy Great post, somebody that still follows boxing a lot more than I do. The last time I really actually followed Toney was when he was assaulting his female manager with a gun. And I'm sure I was already out of the sport by then but how long ago was that?
It does matter. First of all toney's punches aren't as clean and accurate anymore because he's older and not fit. Second see Wilhelm's post above as to why toney's effectiveness will be even further lessened because throwing punchs in a cage is different than the ring. If this were Toney of even the Jirov fight I'd say you have a good point and he would well have a chance against an older Couture even under MMA rules. But the fact is toney is now a 225 lb plus 40 year old slob without great power (at higher weights), the striking isn't the same, couture's chin aint all that bad, and toney will get tired with the consant fighting and action (as opposed to a few punches, walk around and clinch then repeat routine of many of his hw boxing recent matches)
That is a very Interesting post you write. I think you are right. I've only ever seen one James Tony fight probably about eight years ago. And it was one of the best boxing matches I've ever seen in my life and it was clearly Tony at his best. Now I've still got that in my head. it sounds like it's the difference between Tyson in his prime and the plodding slugger he became. I take your point about punching being different, because boxers obviously don't have to worry about leg kicks or takedowns. the orthodox boxing stance is not that different but I seem to remember that Tony is very side on and crablike and unorthodox as you say, I remember this because he was fighting a real upright European in the fight I saw. As Rumsfeld said, is not the unknowns but the unknown unknowns. Does anyone know if Tony has any wrestling or martial experience. We need more data. what if he has done a bit of wrestling and has a talent for it. or has done judo or something. who's to say he hasn't got MMA buddies and tried it out. People aren't cardboard cutouts. Until I have any information to the contrary I'm not going to rule out any possibility. although the evidence does seem to suggest so far that Tony is just some tired arrogant gasbag who is going to get steamrollered. One thing that is an absolute fact,MMA gloves are far more dangerous than boxing glove. less force is needed to do major damage. This is basic physics. it's far more important to be able to land any punch rather than have full force behind it. if there's any sort of clinch I just see Tony being able to whip in an uppercut or a hook and be able to get through. providing he can stand on his feet for more than a few seconds.
If Toney clinches, Randy tosses him lack a fat sack of mashed potatoes and pounds him into unconsciousness.Greco-Roman> Toney's mouth getting him what he asked for.
