Daniel Dubois vs 2015 Luis Ortiz

Dubois was very overrated he's stiff robotic and has no boxing IQ.

 

He's still got a resume several levels beyond Ortiz' - yes, he has limitations but he's beaten a fighter Ortiz ducked (with a career high payday on the table, no less) FFS...

This isn't a question, Dubois is better than Ortiz ever was.

Ortiz was, with the exception only of Wilder, the most overhyped heavyweight of this century.

 

Why is Dubous better than Ortiz ever was based on what ?

So you think regarding eye test Dubois looks significantly better than Ortiz ? I don't think so.

Ortiz was old by the time he got the big fights as he was avoided as I've already said in the other thread.

Dubois got gifted a belt and beat a Joshua on his way out.

Dubois is nothing special at all robotic stiff and has shown he can quit when things aren't going his way.

Dubois has been on the floor 6 times vs southpaws Ortiz would end him.

 

Dubois is horrible against southpaws.

Ortiz KO's him in the first half of the fight.

 

Ortiz stops him.

 

Resume.

A contender as your best win >>> a gatekeeper as your best win.

Eye test is irrelevant when level of opponents is so far apart - it's easier to look good against rubbish opponents.

Avoided is an excuse for guys who haven't and/or can't climb the ladder...

I don't buy that excuse - it's almost always applied to guys who either wanted to skip the line and refused to work up, or who priced themselves out of opportunities.

You don't get credit for things you didn't prove - and Ortiz didn't prove a heck of a lot.

And Ortiz ducked Joshua to fight inferior Wilder...

Nothing ATG kind of special, but he's there or thereabouts despite barely being into his prime.

Where Ortiz had his chances and failed to prove squat.

 

Ortiz boxes him up

 

Id pick Ortiz

More of a styles make fights thing

Southpaw and Dubios has a low boxing iq and is very hitable

Ortiz UD

 

You're arguing about resume ? i'm on about how they match up and the eye test of each fighter ?

Dubois has been on the floor 6 times vs southpaws so stylistically Ortiz has a good chance in this match up.

Again because Dubois beat a faded Joshua doesn't mean he's level above Ortiz come off it.....

Dubois headbutted Hrgovic to oblivion.

Beat an obese Miller.

And beat a faded Joshua on his way out.

Which apparently in your mind means Dubois is levels above Ortiz ? it's frigging Dubois we're talking about my guy and you're suggesting he's levels above Ortiz ? Are you trolling ?

Not everyone can be gifted a belt like Dubois.

You look at how the fighters match up.....Ortiz is a skillful southpaw and guess what ? Dubois has historically done poorly against southpaws visiting the canvas 6 times.

He's exactly the same as Ortiz a contender nothing more nothing less.

 

It's difficult, if not impossible, to separate them.

Looking good against lesser opponents is much easier than looking good against better ones.

Of course the guy with the inferior resume is looking better against his best wins than the guy fighting much tougher guys.

Ortiz never beat anyone remotely close to Joshua's level... So yes, it realistically does mean Dubois is almost certainly levels above Ortiz.

If you want to play the cherrypicking game and twist things, you could say that Dubois has never been knocked out by an overhyped bumfighter - for me, you're just not being consistent...

And I'm not even blaming you - everyone does it after someone loses, they highlight every flaw and look for the excuses to justify putting them down...
But losing to an ATG isn't a career killer - and losing to Usyk twice and to Joyce doesn't weigh down Dubois' record enough to put him on a level with a guy whose best win was a gatekeeper, it just doesn't.

Yes, he's dirty and Hrgovic isn't very good so he shouldn't have needed to do that - I don't defend it.

Miller isn't very good, but he'd still go top two on Ortiz resume.

And even faded Joshua is worth way more than someone as Jennings... Especially when you consider Dubois was arguably not quite prime yet.

No, but guys with limited draw and hype can climb the ladder by taking the best fights possible and even going cheap if they need to...

"Avoided" is an excuse, not a reality.

Skills are great.

But being skillful and yet not effective isn't worth much.

Being effective and proven but with limited skills is worth more, because it's already taken you further... And Dubois has already achieved more, got a better resume and he's barely into his prime.

Claiming Ortiz is better despite proving much less because of some mythical eye test bull**** is just ridiculous... It's like all the numpties claiming Tank was a legit P4P because he passed the eye test, yet he achieved little for it and arguably lost to guys who weren't top drawer.

And there's the disagreement...

Dubois is a contender.

Ortiz probably wasn't - and at any rate never proved it if he was... And I don't believe in giving guys the credit for things they didn't prove - too many times guys who are overhyped prove they don't deserve it (and besides, the higher up the tree you go, the less guys make it - so no, he's what he proved and no more in my book).
Beating an overhyped gatekeeper in Jennings (overhyped for losing wide to Wlad, I guess at least he didn't get knocked out) and being the last to fight scuba Scott isn't a contenders resume.

 

No it really isn't.

You can logically make a strong argument that stylistically Ortiz should be favoured in this match up due to Dubois's very poor track record vs southpaws.

Dubois didn't win a single round vs Usyk in 15 rounds of fighting and quit in one of the fights after a soft jab.

Dubois was floored 3 times by the unremarkable southpaw Lerena and needed a hometown stoppage.

What you're saying is ridiculous that's like saying because Spinks has a win over Ali that he's leagues above 95 percent of any Heavyweights of ever lived.


Use common sense do you really believe Dubois is multiple levels above Ortiz ? we're talking about Dubois here like come off it....

No you're twisting things because you dislike Wilder so you're exaggerating your negativity on Ortiz. Suggesting Dubois is multiple levels above Ortiz is absolutely ridiculous.

I've never rated Dubois highly i've been the one in a recent thread in classic forum "Foreman 91 vs Dubois" prior to Usyk rematch saying that Dubois has showed alot of flaws and that he was overhyped because he had 1 or 2 decent wins.

The rematch with Usyk showed Dubois is exactly the same fighter a stiff upright puncher with a lack of boxing IQ and a suspect heart.

How can you say Ortiz wasn't a contender when he was a top 5 ranked contender for 6 years ? he's been in the top 10 for x3 as long as Dubois who's only been recently ranked ? Dubois wasn't even ranked when he fought Usyk the 1st time.

 

Sorry, but that's nonsense - if you think the eye test can be taken completely independent of the quality of opponent, I'm not going to discuss it any further...

It's just not possible to debate with that - to each their own, but to me it seems like a fundamental misunderstanding of something quite important.

Realistically at least one level, possibly two... Depends what Dubois goes on to do with his prime - but he's at least a level above already.

No... I never rated Wilder anywhere near his hype, and I never rated Ortiz that highly because he never proved that much.

I didn't decide to rate Ortiz lower to deny credit from Wilder - I just don't see any reason to give the kind of credit guys who desperately want to rate Wilder want to give him...
And as far as I can see, the evidence is more behind my position than theirs, but I suppose I would think that, wouldn't I?

No **** he has flaws, I don't disagree...

But despite those, he's been effective against almost everyone he's fought and losing to Usyk doesn't drop him down to Ortiz level - Ortiz didn't lose to a top tier ATG, he lost to a guy who never beat a contender (caveat, yes Ortiz was old already when he lost).

Rankings are frequently wrong.

Guys get ranked way too high all the time - Ortiz was never a top 5 guy.

 

Ortiz might actually give him a lot of problems but I think Daniel eventually grinds him down between the 8 to 10th rounds kinda like Hrgovic.

 

Close fight, I’d favour DDD just about.
I think he has a better engine than Ortiz and obviously we know Ortiz doesn’t have the best chin and Dubois would find it with regularity

 

I'm done with this convo BTW someone who doesn't take into account that Dubois has been down 6 times vs southpaws and performed very poorly vs southpaws and thinks that has no relevance is baffling.

Someone that believes Dubois is 2 levels above Ortiz is an utterly ridiculous take. Anyone with common sense and using their own two eyes watching both fighters can clearly see that is nonsense.

Anyone would think Dubois is Lennox Lewis the way you're talking about levels....it's frigging Daniel Dubois are we talking about the same fighter ?

Someone that believes Dubois is more of a contender than Ortiz when the latter has spent 6 years in the top 5. And then dismisses the rankings when it doesn't suit their narrative showing a clear sign of bias.

Yeah nothing more to be said goodbye.