Surf bat, I place a lot of faith in the Fulton story. Obviously it is probably blown out of proportion a little, but can anyone see Sugar Ray Robinson doing the same thing? Not a chance, imo. Ray put as much distance between himself and Marciano, Walcott, Charles and even Moore as he could. In fact, even when he challenged Maxim, it ended pretty disastrously, despite the excuses. The great Light heavyies simply got too big and strong for Ray (who was a brilliant little man). His skill meant he could compete great in the middleweight arena, and his heart meant he kept winning titles, but unfortunately, his lack of natural size also meant he kept losing them. Ray was a small middleweight. He had some astounding results and is a live chance against anyone, but Darcy is too big and strong. He is a nightmare for him. In fact, there is not even any guarantees that Jimmy Clabby, McGoorty, Smith or Crouse lose to Ray, although i think they would. the other fight is Hardwick, who was the Australian Champion. Obviously Hardwick was no world beater, and not that big, but Clearly Darcy was better than the Aussie heavy champ, and clearly there wasnt a fighter heavyweight or otherwise that could compare with Darcy. The Aussie Heavy scene continued to drop in standard, but it certainly would have been interesting to see if Ray Could do what Darcy did and win an Australian Heavyweight title. Ray was in his prime as a "big" man around 1950 to 1952. At this time the Australian Heavyweight champion was none other than Dave Sands. Hmm, another Aussie Middleweight who could have likely beaten Ray, at the time, if fate had not intervened. He certainly did better against common opponent Henry Brimm! The if Clabby could last, Ray could argument doesnt cut it. It is like saying if Ray was floored by Lamotta, and Levine and struggled so badly with Brimm, Servo, Basora, Brimm and Maxim, he has no chance of surviving and winning against the bigger and stronger Darcy. It is simply a shocking match up for Ray. His best chance is an on his bicycle fluent boxing clinic where he wins every round. I cant see it happening, Darcy will catch him at some stage and when he does, he will stop him. I am pretty confident of it to be honest.
Robinson put feelers out regarding a title challenge to Archie Moore,even having Archie and his wife round to dinner to discuss it,it fell through because as Moore said "Ray wanted all the money" If I may say so you place a lot of credence in the story of Darcy and Fulton ,which was,after all, a sparring session,,that is if it happened at all. Personally I think lurid tales of closed doors set tos are very unreliable when gauging how a man may perform in a real fight.
I havent been run to ground by anyone. Ive been busy with work and just feel this discussion has gone about as far as it can go. Its like arguing that Santa Claus doesnt exist with a three year old. I think Ive laid out my case fairly well and I think any rational person will understand my point of view. When Sinn feels cornered he either makes things up or comes back with arguments that are half truths at best and more often than not either totally inaccurate or largely so. The alarming frequency of such arguments lends one to the belief that he is willing to make up stories to suit his case or is simply following blindly behind the mythos sorrounding Darcy. I dont blame him, I see it with people from all over. Ive argued with people from Canada who think Chuvalo went 20 years without ever being bumped from the top ten ratings. Thats a myth. Ive argued with people who think Henry Cooper would have beaten Ali had Dundee not bought Ali an extra five minutes (which never happened), Ive argued with people who think Mickey Walker and Harry Greb got into a street fight in 1925 hours after their boxing match (never happened). And now Im arguing with someone who chooses to believe that Darcy was fighting on completely even terms with everyone he ever fought, that there are no questions sorrounding either his legacy or what he could have accomplished, that he would have come to the USA and defeated every MW, LHW, and HW of note, and that he would have returned to Australia a hero. The facts dont jive with any of that. Those that defend this point of view are arguing from a position of adoration, which clouds the judgement. When it is revealed that Darcy's manager was allowed to coach the referee, his brother, the argument shifts from a point illustrating an obvious bias to the house fighter to "show me where his coaching affected the fight". When the treatment of Jeff Smith is discussed the discussion shifts to "then why did he stay here so long," and on and on and on. As Ive stated VERY CLEARLY and will continue to state: Darcy could very well have been all he was cracked up to be by the Australian publicity machine that was 110% behind him until he left his native shores. However, we dont know, because there are very real and very legitimate questions sorrounding his accomplishments and what he was capable of. Period. You can choose to believe otherwise but I think the evidence is plainly there for anyone to see (including Australians) that those questions linger and he died too soon to answer them. On other subjects I have been very clear. He may or may not have trained with Fulton and indeed they may have even sparred together. This really doesnt matter to me. Fulton may have even ended their sparring session early. Again, this means little. The Australians can build this up to what they want but frankly there is no evidence that Darcy ever knocked Fulton out other than the word of his adoring friends who never ceased to heap praise upon him. Even his most dogged biophraphers have failed to find any mention of Darcy knocking Fulton out. And more to the point I dont believe that Darcy could knock out Fulton in a real fight. There is certainly nothing in his record to suggest that he could knock out a 6 foot 6 highly trained and WORLD RATED 220 pound fighter. Yes Fulton had a weak jaw but that was certainly never exposed by anyone as small as Darcy. Here is an example of how these stories get so blown out of preportion. After Harry Greb got out of the service a middleweight made the rounds stating that he had knocked Greb out. He made quite a lot of publicity out of this and probably even made a fair amount of money off of it. Obviously this story peaked my interest. So I searched and searched and searched and was finally able to piece the story together. It turns out that the two had been sparring together and sure enough Greb called a halt to the sparring session mid round. Why? Well, he wasnt quitting, he wasnt hurt, in fact he had a pre-existing cut that he feared would widen and prevent him from fighting. A perfectly logical explanation to a story that got massively blown out preportion. Did that fighter ever fight Greb, hell no because if he had Greb would have punched so many holes in him he would have looked like a salt shaker. I think you can get my point. I think when someone refuses to admit the most basic obvious fact that Darcy did indeed have certain advantages in Australia, posts photos of Darcy sparring Fulton that are not even of Fulton, doesnt seem to know or understand the basic facts of Darcy's American tour, etc etc. Yet continues to argue, then there is no point in continuing the argument. Half of my time is spent laying out my argument and the other half is spent correcting his. Two steps forward, one step back. Besides, hes happy in fantasy land, why burst his bubble. P.S. I personally think McGoorty, Crouse, and Smith would lose to Ray Robinson: If they agreed to, were paid to, or unjustly DQd by a biased referee who was Robinsons managers brother... but thats just me. And now Im going to go watch my film of Young Griffo while I polish his championship belt...
If you know anything about the fight game, then it's a given that you know that the truth is a stranger. Interview two fighters that have fought each other & 90% of the time, a third person would form the opinion that both men were fighting different opponents. Their recollection/opinion can be that diverse. Find a jounalist that has absoutely no loyalty's or obligations in the game & one will get a similar recollection/report as the judge he was standing behind. Of all the histories of famous atheletes, fighters are the least likely to be accurate enough to say "This is what happened". One has to remember that American boxing negotiators are the hardest, meanest "fighters" on the planet when it comes to striking a deal (That's a compliment, among their own ilk) That Tex Rickard took Darcy under his wing, would not have been because of rumour or hype. He was too hard & experienced a businessman to fall for that. But even he could not ward off the internal pressure of two allied governments, so he dropped out. O'Sullivan was a goldfish in a shark aquarium. Common sense told Darcy if he was ever going to get a fair go, the shyster O'Sullivan had to go (No matter how earnest he may have tried) Darcy desperately needed public support & Sullivan had become a millstone around his neck. Two things we can be pretty sure of is that when a 19 year old stops a 55-6 American at the top of his game, he is something extra special, but it was not to be, & any suppositions is just semantics. Boxing owes a lot of it's fame/infamy to semantics. Bum of the month. Padded records. Intimidating judges & referees. Housing visitors in places where they're on first name basis with the resident rats, to putting them in a taxi driven by the opponents demented brother in law is all part of it's history. As I started this post, we will never know whether those that really knew tha game back then thought that Les would evolve to legend or not because there were so many factors that threatened the truth. Sugar Ray Robinson did evolve. Over 200 fights, 20 odd title fights & was never knocked out. That is the ingredience of legend. Les Darcy has to stand behind that because his legend was evolving. What he had done so far in that short life exceeded anyone that went before him in his native country. That's his legacy, & it's enough to make him a legend in is own country. Cheers
I wrote & posted this elsewhere, but for those not familiar with Oz folklore, here it is again. This content is protected This content is protected This content is protected This content is protected This content is protected This content is protected This content is protected This content is protected This content is protected This content is protected This content is protected This content is protected This content is protected This content is protected This content is protected This content is protected This content is protected This content is protected This content is protected This content is protected This content is protected
Very poignant,is this poem to the great lamented Les Darcy.It reminds me of the great eulogy to the memory of Nonpariel Jack Dempsey. The middleweight division is replete of such shortened lives, such as Dempsey, Ketchel, Papke, Darcy, Greb, Flowers,Cerdan, Dave Sands, etc. Sad...
Yes burt. I wrote it for the unveiling of the supporters plaques attached to the base of his statue. The money raised will be used to refurbish the Darcy tomb. I like the way poetry leaves a preview of the legacy. I wrote this of Dave Sands as well. This content is protected This content is protected This content is protected This content is protected This content is protected This content is protected This content is protected This content is protected This content is protected This content is protected This content is protected This content is protected This content is protected This content is protected This content is protected This content is protected This content is protected This content is protected This content is protected This content is protected This content is protected This content is protected This content is protected This content is protected This content is protected This content is protected This content is protected This content is protected This content is protected This content is protected This content is protected
This content is protected That's quite a disclaimer Klompy. I've deleted a large portion of the rhetorical nonsense from you and find this saved piece amusing. 'Every obvious fact' of Darcy's FAVOURTISM, as described by you, has been shot to pieces in this thread. You need to provide adequate arguement, defend the rubbish you've posted or admit that you're knowlegde is sub par. Continually 'claiming evidence of..' is not good enough Klomps. You have failed. You've not provided a single name of any Australian who suggested Darcy was beaten by KO Brown. You've not provided a single word, action and other, from Snowy to Harald, that affected the outcome of any bout- in any month or year whilst these two men were at the Sydney Stadium. You claim Harald Baker was constantly favouring Darcy. You failed to nominate a single action by Baker that favoured Darcy. I showed, quite clearly, that Baker was not in favour of Les. You claim Buck Crouse went to his grave protesting 'a rigged' fight with Les. A poor fighter, that lasted 2 rounds against Les. KNOCKED OUT. This content is protected This content is protected Thefirst McGoorty fight was rigged??? "McGoorty said so". Rubbish. Yep, my mistake for confusing the first and second bout. It must have been rigged, as McGoorty barely survived the 14th, and hit the floor on three occassions in the 15th round. Various reports claim the ringside Police Officer simply stood up, and Baker waved it off before McGoorty recieved any further 'rigged' punishment. Other reports state that the Officer 'called' a halt to the bout; instructions followed by Harald Baker. You belittle Les Darcy for finally being allowed to fight- in Memphis- against Len Rowlands. 'A nothing fighter'. You failed to point out that Rowlands took Jeff Smith (a world class fighter) 15 rounds, just 3 weeks after Darcy's demise. The following week Rowlands took Jack Dillon the distance, and then a couple of months later, Rowlands took Harry Greb the full journey. This same Greb, who could not blow out a candle, you claim would have 'blasted holes' in some other poor unfortunate in your disclaimer. The only 'salt shaker' is your head Klomps. This content is protected This content is protected This content is protected
"That Tex Rickard took Darcy under his wing, would not have been because of rumour or hype. He was too hard & experienced a businessman to fall for that." This comment kills any credibility your statement might have. Rickard was a promoter. The king of hype, and well known for bringing foreign fighters to America in order to sell them to the rubes as a curiosity. He was not above hyping them FAR beyond their ability either, Firpo and Rojas come to mind, as does the million dollar gate.
R, your poem for Dave Sands has enriched me. In all sincerity. I remember watching Dave Sands defeating a young future champion Carl Bobo Olson on early television. Pity, that Dave Sands never tackled Ray Robinson. But death intervened.. I always wonder if by magic, we could bring Les Darcy and Dave Sands together, who would be the victor ? Sidenote- As a kid , i used to spar with an American fighter Tommy Jones, who fought in Australia, and was kod by your Fred Henneberry. Small world it is...
Mate, perhaps you missed my point. I was intimating that Rickard himself was not silly enough to be sold hype. Whether he believed Darcy was special, we'll never know. I've tried to be respectful & circumspect in this debate but the overwhelming vibe I'm getting from you is that Darcy's career was sheltered & protected. He was no Prima Canera that much you can be guaranteed. You need to learn a bit about our culture mate. If all that **** was going on, that's what would have become famous, & Les Darcy would have gone back to his anvil in disgrace. "I see a guy fighting several thousand miles from home very soon after a long sea journey in front of a hostile crowd, with a referee bought and paid for by his management team, at a stadium owned by his promoter, etc etc. Are you going to deny that those conditions dont favor Darcy? Its hard as hell to win on the road and was even more difficult in those days long sea voyages, vastly different foods, etc. As Ive said before, it would have been interesting to see how good Darcy could perform when the shoe was on the other foot. Eddie McGoorty said, "Down there they treat the loser better than they do the winner here." If you want to twist that. So be it.
Yeah mate. What might have been Eh? Fred was a wild man. We had a referee here named Joe Wallace. A big fat man that had a tendancy towards Freds opponents. Fred hated him. The hate was still there 30 years later. Cheers
Sorry Senya, I found this post after being on here earlier this evening and disconnected when sending the initial response. It obviously failed. No mate, I do NOT accept that Darcy was dismissing any fight offers. Darcy and Rickard had a basic route to what may have materialised as early sucesses in NY State, and other. Hence I believe it's unfair to suggest any fights were knocked back as such. Klompton may try and paint a picture that Darcy was knocking back fight offers; seemingly with no other options at the time. Fact is that each proposal would have been recognised as genuine, and taken on board, once desired options were fulfilled. There is no reports, as far as I'm aware, that Les said blatantly "NO" to any legitimately considered offers. With every proposed contract (from managers) put forward, it's quite absurd to assume that every offer should be agreed to, signed and set. The list of offers is not a short one. Klompy states that Darcy was offered $45,000 to fight Gibbons, yet requested $50,000. Rubbish. Tim O'Sullivan signed a contract for Les to fight Gibbons in a $25,000/side fight. $25,000 each. Fact. Les made it immediately clear that O'Sullivan had no business EVER to sign on Darcy's behalf. Issuing a statement to the press as such, and 'firing' O'Sullivan from the team. Mick Hawkins had been in the same boat as Tim.... no contracts.. no obligations to, or from Darcy. He remained in Darcy's trusted 'squad' for every bout since the earliest days. He never faultered in that position... Hence he remained as one of the men most close to Les. O'Sullivan, as I've stated numerous times throughout this thread, had no contract on anyone. He had no business deal with Les- nor did he have as little as a handshake agreement with Les at any stage. Had O'Sullivan remained collected throughout, he would have recieved far more than his actual worth. Darcy's early faith and loyalty would have seen a valuable return in O'Sullivan's favour. The qoute from Darcy, which you offered, is as far as I'm concered a tongue-in-cheek offering towards the press.... more than likely afforded in effort to portray a professional standing to the media who qouted those words... As a tempoararily 'trusted' figure in Darcy's early US days, I've no doubt that Darcy afforded O'Sullivan the chance to appear as a man in 'professional' business with Les. Mick Hawkins recieved the same testimony in Australia on many occassions. I look forward to reading the press release with the quote you've offered regardless..... and others you might provide- purely for the sake of determining whether or not Tex Rickard was present at the 'press meeting'. The list of proposals from other Managers to tackle Les is as long as your arm. That being said, it's more than widely known that Rickard's earliest aim was Carpentier. Yes, that failed to materialise as other offers were made. With a bum, in Al McCoy, holding the prestigious mantle of World M/W Champ, Darcy felt him to be an easy outing. Facing McCoy was paramount to Les' own recognition of World Champ. Those mentioned fight proposals would have been taken accordingly, had Darcy the oportunity to defend the Championship. IMO. Sorry for the long response. Cheers. :good