'Dark Lord' Adam Booth: The K brothers expect to be lauded as ATGs. I don't buy it.

There doesn't need to be a 500 word reply to this.

Both are ATG's because they have dominated THEIR ERA. Both have done as much as they possibly could with what's been available to them, you don't stay at the top for years in any era unless you're special. They've beat anybody that has been relevant to them, with the exception of Vitali fighting Lewis and Byrd, both fights having omitigating circumstances.

Jesus christ.

 

I agree with what you say, but why would that put them into the top 20 of all-time? Assuming that is what you consider a requirement to being an ATG, anyway.

 

Norton has the W over Ali.

Exactly WHO has Byrd beaten?

Norton > Byrd

 

You're mistaking "lost" for "getting bored of a moron who will just talk louder than you".

I have no interest in debating with someone who starts typing in caps because they lack a strong argument.

 

The trouble with the 'You must be top 20 of all time to be an ATG' argument Jack is that time goes on, years pass and others make their claim to the top 20, so eventually guys who've been a lock will end up pushed out, do they stop being an ATG because time went on?

To be an ATG, you must thoroughly dominate your era, have exceptional skills and garner a decent amount of momentum in H2H matchups, IMO.

 

This debate is reaching a dead end. I will make one last attempt.

The question you ask is not justified. The Klitschkos dominates and head to head ability is more importent than mysterious legendary status achieved by this or that goofball who would have been knocked out today anyway.

 

Silencer could have been a lot more composed in his posts.

But your argumentation is not very strong, either. You use sharp angles because you believe you can corner the other person you debate with. But reality is more complex than logic twisted and refined to prove a specifik point.

 

Yeah, I think you can lose it. I said a while ago that Haye is an ATG at cruiserweight and I stand by that. In 50 years time when the division has matured, it's highly unlikely he will be an ATG because the only reason he is now, is due to the fact the division has no history. I consider the top 10 cruisers, right now, to be ATG's and as time moves on, that will change.

In divisions like heavyweight though, I think the criteria should expand because true greats don't lose their status. If 70 years ago it was that the top 15 heavyweights are ATG's, then I'd say that in another 70 years, it should be that the top 30 are ATG's. Right now, I think there are about 18 heavyweights who have an extremely solid case but I accept that those fighters will always be ATG's, even as the divisions history grows and more fighters become great.

No matter what happens, the criteria for greatness will either be dominance or opposition beat. A fighter can't beat great opponents if there aren't any around to beat. If that is the case, they must be dominant and I don't think the Klitschkos have either of those things.

 

Let me ask you a question. If Wlad lost to Mormeck, would you say he has dominated this era?

 

Ok.

Now please tell me; exactly WHO has either Klit ever beat?

Ancient Egypt = Black Africa - no fake images needed.

You had better get used to the idea...

 

I agree with almost everything you said there, but to say that the Klits haven't been dominant is wrong buddy. They have all the belts and would of had them sooner had Valuev not played keep away with John Ruiz and Changev for years.

 

I think there is an argument to be had here. What I would say to counter it, is that whilst the Klitschkos have dominated for a while, I don't think that is set yet. Wlad has only gone 14 fights since his last defeat and if he loses against Mormeck, do you think people in 60 years will say "That was Wlad's era"? I don't. His legacy is still uncertain to me and if he loses against a guy like Mormeck, he loses every bit of credibility he has earned.

If he retires without losing again, then I'll say he dominated. However, I think it's too early to say he has dominated, when a loss could quite easily affect that.

One thing I do thing hurts the Klitschkos, is the fact they've dominated as a unit. I made a point a few days ago about how selective their opposition has been, with fighters that suit Wlad fighting Wlad and fighters which suit Vitali fighting him. If you think about boxers they haven't fought, who was always closely linked to Povetkin and who was linked to Valuev? Is it a mere coincidence that the majority of the time, the brother fights the one who suits him the most? I don't think so, and that is a genuine issue.

 

What about mandatories then?

Peter rematch for Wlad was a mandatory and he smashed him to bits.

Solis was Vitali's mando and we know what happened.
They cant just pick whoever they want.

The KLITs collected all belts together and that was always their goal. They dont care about legacy, they just wanted to make their dream come true. And they did.

First pair of Bros. to hold all titles in one division. Just remarkable.

 

If he lost to him today it would really put a questionmark to his legacy, but it seems like Wlad has risen above his previous defeats. And they where all avenged with sadistic and onesided beatdowns anyway. It's not common sense to expect the siblings to remain undefeated when they take on everyone that steps up to the plate. Wlads record of fiftysix victories after fitynine fights is clearly the one of a dominating champ.

 

I agree again about selecting which opponent would suit them best, though the majority of defences are mandatory so there may be something to that. I don't see Wlad losing to Mormeck or anybody else around right now, if both he and Vitali retire without losing a fight from this point they must be included in the ATG discussion with the only negative point being the lack of a significant challener. Wlad had Haye, who many will dismiss as a blown up CW, but Haye was as able as anyone in the division who wasn't related to Wlad.

It's acceptable to me that the reign together, I wouldn't expect them to fight. The way I see it going from this point is that Vitali retires after 2-3 more fights, vacating the WBC title which Wlad promptly wins. Wlad then takes 3-4 fights as Undisputed HW Champion to secure his legacy as the greatest champion of his era.