Dave Charnley v Jim Watt

Discussion in 'Classic Boxing Forum' started by Stevie G, Nov 13, 2010.


  1. Stevie G

    Stevie G Obsessed with Boxing Full Member

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    Who takes this one ?
     
  2. Duodenum

    Duodenum Boxing Junkie Full Member

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    Put this one in Glasgow, and I'd wager the mortgage on Watt, who was only beaten there by a prime Buchanan while still relatively inexperienced in a closely scored battle over the championship distance.

    When Arguello challenged Jim, I was kind of relieved that Wembley was the venue, as Watt might have fought Alexis to the death on Scottish soil. (He said he'd rather die a thousand times than lose his WBC belt in Glasgow.) Dave was shorter than Jim, and Watt had that superb southpaw jab, a rare attribute in the 1950s, 1960s and 1970s. In this southpaw showdown, that jab would be a key advantage. Jim also possessed excellent strength along with the height and reach advantage he'd enjoy in this pairing. Ultimately, I think the Watt of Davis, Jr. had just a little more than Charnley at his best. Very good match though.

    Watt UD 15 Charnley
     
  3. Stevie G

    Stevie G Obsessed with Boxing Full Member

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    I tend to agree Duodenum.
     
  4. AREA 53

    AREA 53 Boxing Addict Full Member

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    I also would plumb for Jim, Its Jim's "No Wastage" Policy which i think serves him well in this fight, Dave will do what Dave does, Pressure Pressure Pressure, which means Jim will not have to go looking or him, and Jim's straight punch armory will see Dave having progressively to commit to attack to stay competitive, whereas Jim might be able to Pinch a few rounds with the Jab, a little bit of movement, and a minimal amount of energy expanded, a few rounds like this would stand Jim in good stead, particularly on the scorecards in a long fight. Dave would be committed, but Jim, like Dave has no Stamina problems so ould not fade down the stretch, i like Jim on points with a marked up charnley being lauded "Dave the Brave" by the fight scribes. styles (with attitude) make fights and this match favours Jim's style i feel.
     
  5. mcvey

    mcvey VIP Member Full Member

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    Charnley beats Watt, possibly by stoppage.
    Watt was an exceptionally well managed fighter, his title challenge was against an average fighter in Pitalua , and he had home [UK] advantage in all his major fights.
    Charnley was a badly managed fighter Arthur Boggis ,was all about the ££££.
    Terry Lawless, Watt's manager would never have put him in with a peak welterweight Champ like Emille Griffith.
    Charnley's challenge was against a great champ Joe Brown ,and many thought he won it.
    Brown would have comprehensively beaten Watt.
    Charnley proved he could handle southpaws when he beat Kenny Lane, he was a step above Watt imo.
     
  6. Tin_Ribs

    Tin_Ribs Me Full Member

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    This quite near to the mark, I think. I've always respected Watt as fighter and thought that he had one of the best jabs of any British fighter as well as making the most of an otherwise ordinary skillset. But Charnley was just a little bit better to my eye, I can't really imagine where Jim has a clear cut advantage tbh.
     
  7. turpinr

    turpinr Boxing Junkie Full Member

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    i'll take watt to win a close fight, i wouldn't bet on it though.they were both hard men.
     
  8. thistle1

    thistle1 Boxing Addict Full Member

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    No contest - Charnley.
     
  9. Duodenum

    Duodenum Boxing Junkie Full Member

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    A peak Arguello, primed to win his third divisional title, did not come close to stopping Watt. To suggest that Dave could stop him where the Nicaraguan didn't is a bold leap.
    Yes, he was superbly managed, and let's not beat around the bush about that home advantage. Territorial advantage for those WBC Title wins of his were not merely confined to the UK, or even Scotland, but Glasgow specifically. However, once claiming that WBC belt, credible risks were made in putting it up against O'Grady and Davis, Jr. If both Watt and O'Grady had somehow finished their bout unmarked, Jim would have produced a comfortable 15 UD win, just as he did in handing Howard his first loss.
    Part of the reason I commented as I did about the prospect of this one taking place in Glasgow. Boggis would allow it.
    Well, as iconic a sports symbol of Scotland and Glasgow as Jim was during his reign, the fact of who he did lose his title to remains, a situation which was more of a formal coronation than Arguello's two previous ascensions.

    Griff tended to sometimes blow even title defenses, and he did lose his very next outing to Manuel Gonzales, leading to a WW Title shot for Gonzales the next year. Charnley could easily have found himself in Manny's position if he'd likewise managed to catch Griff on inferior form. Considering the potential payoff, it was a reasonable gamble, particularly as the venue was Wembley, and Griff typically went the distance.

    Watt's first BBBofC LW defense was after just 17 professional outings against a legendary veteran of 47 fights.

    His second EBU LW defense was successful over the championship distance against former 140 pound world champion Perico Fernandez in Madrid.

    O'Grady got his first world title shot at Watt, not WBA counterpart Kenty.

    Virtually everybody outside of the UK (and many inside Glasgow) expected that Davis, Jr. would dethrone him.

    True, Watt was extremely well managed, but it's not exactly as if any and all serious opponents were assiduously and flagrantly avoided. Enough risks were taken that he evolved into a very substantial champion, and he's never received the proper credit due for making Arguello go the championship limit in a losing cause. (Alexis won 19 title fights. Only Watt and the obscenely tough Arturo Leon lasted the full 15.)
    You're making reference to their second title fight.

    Dave had an advantage of nine years youth in that trilogy, and still got beaten the first two times. Their middle bout was an excellent scrap, but there's little to suggest the decision for Old Bones was any kind of great storied robbery. Of course Joe would comprehensively beat Watt at their respective bests. The first time they fought, Brown did comprehensively beat Charnley, and he was already pushing 34 then.
    Both were at the end of the world class road at this point. Kenny was three years older, and Dave actually had an inch of height on him. Lane was certainly faster than Watt (everybody was), but he certainly didn't have a stronger stance with superior balance. Nor did he have as fundamentally sound a jab oriented manner of execution. (A less experienced Watt actually out jabbed Buchanan at times, like in the seventh round.) Yes, Kenny was quick, clever, mobile and talented, but I also think that he, like Charnley, garnered an awful lot of success simply by being southpaws in an age where that was still an extreme novelty.

    Watt himself came up instantly from an opening round flash knockdown to chew up and spit out fellow southpaw Charlie Nash in his second WBC defense. If either was more equipped than the other for dealing with southpaw opposition, I'd go with Watt, who came up in an era when there were more of them.

    Arguello made a living destroying southpaws. Excepting Ramirez, Jim did better against Alexis than all the others put together.

    Footage of Watt, Charnley and Lane should be examined when making this evaluation. I look at Dave cranking up to let fly with that lethal right hook, and see Jim getting in first repeatedly with his slower but shorter and straighter right jab.
     
  10. scartissue

    scartissue Boxing Junkie Full Member

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    Duodenum, first I think we should clarify rather than glorify the fact that Watt went 15 rounds with Arguello only because he fought a completely negative/survival mode fight without ever mounting any kind of attack. And was still a shredded mess afterwards. Also, we should look at their comp. The best fighters Watt faced was Buchanan, Arguello, O'Grady, Fernandez and Davis. That's it. Charnley faced Brown (3 times), Griffith, Ortiz, Lane, Jordan, Stable, Grant, Vaillant, Armstead, Matthews and Gonzalves. I know I'm leaving guys out but you get the point. Watt fought Pitalua, Vasquez and Nash in title bouts and I would think they would have been turned down as sparring partners in Charnley's day. I have seen enough of Watt's fights to know he leaked like a seive around the eyes and I don't think it would have been any better against the teak-tough Charnley. Charnley one-sidedly on an 8th round stoppage.

    Scartissue
     
  11. mcvey

    mcvey VIP Member Full Member

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    Thanks you saved me a post :good