David Bey vs. Greg Page Aug 31, 1984

This fight in my eyes was a case of Greg Page and good boxer just not doing enough. While a less skilled determined awkward but strong contender in Bey gave it his all and out worked him. Bey too me was a pretty good fighter who had a short peak. I think he was at his best while undefeated coming up I thought he gave a decent account of himself against Holmes who at the time was still pretty great in my eyes. After that he'd get beat by Berbick in a tough fighter and from that point on he seemed to slowly decline but was still a tough out. Overall Bey was a notch below most of the contenders of the time but at his best was a strong fighter who was capable of getting good wins like this one. While Page had a number of fights like this one where he should've won but didn't do enough.

 

It was well known that the WBC, IBF and especially WBA rankings were heavily influenced by politics and money (although the two aren't mutually exclusive).

The WBA rankings routinely featured Latin based fighters who had dubious credentials. Some had never fought outside their home countries, which were often not hotbeds of quality figters.

Orlando Romero, Nelson Bolonos are just two examples.

At the same time, the IBF (headed by the corrupt Robert Lee) would rate obscure U.S. based fighters much higher than they deserved to be:

Al Long got a shot at IBF Welterweight Champion Simon Brown, for example.

The WBC was known for placing obsure Mexicans in it's ratings.

Roger Mayweather defended his WBC Superlightweight title against one Sergio Zambrano. Needless to say, Zambrano sucked and was quickly dispatched.

Earlier, Mayweather defended his WBA Junior Lightweight title against the obscure and talentless Benedicto Villablanca.

You get the picture.

As for Stewart, his management probably bought his ranking.

The ironic part is that Stewart could actually fight, unlike a parade of other fighters were undeservedly ranked too high by the various governing bodies.

KO writer Steve Farhood would have a recurring feature where he would break down the ratings and was often flabbergasted by some of the ratings choices.

 

Gotta truly live to the era to fully know it Saad, which obviously you did

 

Later on for sure but the talent had wavered.

I see where you are trying to head but it doesn't cut it for mine and never did back then.

It was common knowledge that when on song Page was the "best of the rest". I doubt we ever saw the best of him really. Maybe the Coetzee and Snipes fights when talking upper tier opponents.

Everybody knew Page blew hot and cold, often cold. They also knew however he had the most talent in the division without exception.

Smith was no dummy.

 

Not really trying to head anywhere, was just asking you since you're without the biggest Greg Page fan on this forum and you have an informed opinion on the subject at least.
I disagree with your high rating of him but then I tend to rate them on what I see in the ring. With Page, I didn't see someone who was more special than his peers.

It's opinion rather than "common knowledge" (or "everyone knew".). The "talent" thing is wholly subjective. Some have said talent is overrated anyway but that's another discussion. It's by the by.
Of course, almost everyone believes the whole crop of 1980s heavyweights blew hot and cold too, and that's much discussed. I followed the heavyweights at the time. In hindsight I'm not sure they were such big wasters after all, just a lot of equally matched fighters fighting each other quite regularly. Contenders in all eras and weight divisions have ups and downs. People were frustrated with heavyweight boxing after Ali left, and the splintered titles being passed around made it worse.

Honestly, if the Coetzee fight was an example of him around his best, I don't think he was all that at his best. It wasn't particularly impressive stuff from either man, imo, as far as top-flight heavyweight contests go. I think there's a good argument to say Coetzee was a guy who fell off once he won the title too. And Coetzee were never as good and as strong and durable as a fighter like Witherspoon, so Page had a much better chance and took it.
But others may think that was a great piece of boxing, which is fair enough.

Purely in my opinion, Greg Page gets a lot of admiration because he had fast hands and liked to showboat. To a lot of people that signifies superior talent straight off the bat. It's a common theme. If a guy can clown around a bit then fire in some fast ripping punches, sometimes accurate or powerful, that tends to win a lot of people over. They imagine he's capable of a lot more than that, whether he actually ever shows it or not.

Greg Page had a lot of hype behind him, based on his style, amateur success and the fact that he was fighting out of Louisville, Kentucky and was the most obviously Ali-inspired heavyweight of that generation.
He did alright, to be fair.
I think there's a lot more substance to Page's career than many of the other heavyweights who get pushed on this forum as special.
He was a genuine contender, and the men who beat him in his heyday were too.

 

I think he was the most naturally talented of the Post Holmes pre Tyson crop

Witherspoon and Tubbs were close behind.

I think if he showed up in shape and focused against Witherspoon, instead of grossly out of shape at 239.5 lbs, he would have beaten Tim. He spent way too much time on the ropes as he was clearly not in shape to move and box enough.

It's true that defensively, he was never as good as Witherspoon and Tubbs. But, he had everything else - good power, great jab, hand and foot speed, and a solid chin.

 

The natural talent thing is an interesting little aside but if he never actually demonstrated a clear superiority it's a little irrelevant to how good Page was in reality. I mean, if his best fights are Coetzee, Snipes, LeDoux, Evangelista (those are usually cited) that's what they are, and I personally don't think those performances outshine the best performances of several HWs of the same era, some of which are cited as less talented.
Page was certainly a "stylish" and "flashy" heavyweight and he was a good one, no doubt.

If we're talking "who could Page beat when he was at his absolute best?" we have to go by the actual performances. Even those cited as his absolute best he shows a lot of flaws and holes. He didn't look a class above the rest at all, to me.

I'm not convinced he was in terrible shape (relative to his own standards) for Witherspoon. Apparently at his 236 pounds against Coetzee he was in great shape. It's been said weight is no indication. In 1984 Coetzee was no Witherspoon, clearly not as strong, and the fight lasted 8 rounds only.
Witherspoon was strong in the centre of the ring and on the ropes. Witherspoon was hard to nail for Page and he picked his shots and hit with some authority. Sometimes Page chose the ropes, and Witherspoon chose to put him on the ropes sometimes too. Page wasn't schooling Witherspoon in ring centre. There's no fight that demonstrates Page boxing and moving and outpointing someone as big, strong and good as Witherspoon was that night, so that's a big ask. It was a close fight so Page has absolutely nothing to alibi for. Witherspoon was probably the best fighter in the world at that time. But, of course, we could say Witherspoon as well as Page had better nights in their careers.
That's my take anyway.

 

Completely agree. Page's defense relied somewhat on him being in shape. In shape and motivated he could control the fights with his jab and a decent workrate. His reflexes were brilliant even if he had his hands far too low most of the time.

 

I heard Greg Page could fly when he was in shape and motivated. I read it in KO magazine. You had to have lived through the time to understand.

 

I was a fan at that time. People were desperate for a new Ali. There was a weird mindset at that time that Ali was getting old, so let's find the next Ali. They did the same thing when Ray Leonard retired. Leonard is gone, so let's find the "next" Leonard (and bestowed that on Donald Curry).

Regardless, Page was chosen to be the new Ali by boxing writers when he was still an amateur because he had a flashy style and he was from Louisville, too. But the truth is Page was always getting beaten in international amateur tournaments. He struggled on the way up as a pro, losing a couple times. He beat Coetzee for a belt with a KO that occurred 50 seconds after the bell should've rang. And lost in his first defense to Tubbs. And was never really a factor again.

But for some reason people continue to insist there was more there than there was.

I really think it goes back to that idea at the time that Page was almost crowned by boxing writers as the "next big thing." You can read it in the articles from back then. The writers were almost consciously trying to convince readers that Page "was the guy."

They didn't seem to grasp that all the great heavyweight champs were kind of unique. If you went looking for the "next" Jack Johnson or Jack Dempsey or Joe Louis or Rocky Marciano or Muhammad Ali ... you weren't going to find them. The next great champ is historically much different than the great champ who came before them.

With Page, they went so far as to pick a guy from Ali's hometown to be the next Ali. But Greg never came REMOTELY close to assuming that mantle.

The next great champ after Ali was Holmes (who really was nothing like him or any other great champ). And after Holmes, the next great champ was Tyson (who really was nothing like Holmes or Ali or any other great champ).

But I think all that "selling" of Page back then really stuck for some people who remember it.

 

I completely agree with this.
In fact, a few years after all this, some of the writers in the same magazines and other media were looking back and more or less admitting their folly.
Gerry Cooney was, of course, the other darling heavyweight of that era. Obviously not a "new Ali" but a great white hope Irish-American New Yorker was heaven sent for media hype.

Larry Holmes was begrudingly held in some esteem but he was about 30 years old and didn't follow the script, he talked like he had nothing left to prove and the broadcasters wanted someone younger and more colourful.

 

Right. They already had their next great heavyweight (in Holmes). They just couldn't see him ... because he wasn't Ali. They were all on the lookout for someone in Ali's mold.

 

I think the Trevor Berbick fight fully exposed Greg Page's flaws. A classic case of a "showy" or "flashy" boxer being outboxed and outfought but a guy with an uglier but more professional style. Make no mistake, Page was in fine shape for that one and Berbick was just offensively and defensively the better fighter. I'm sure Page and his fans have a whole can of excuses for that loss but it was as legit as they come.

I suppose it shows how great and unique Muhammad Ali really was, in the fact that a guy who was admired and was encouraged to be "like Ali", and inspired HOPE for being "like Ali", was actually never more than a pretty average contender using a style that just doesn't work anywhere near as well as it did for Ali.
It also shows how Cassius Clay's (as he was then) early critics were perhaps justified is being so sceptical of his style and poiting out all the amateurish errors inherent in it.
Muhammad Ali was a freak really.

 

Haven't watched much of Page, but wasn't he more fundamentally sound than Ali? He held his hands low, sure, but did he really pull his head back the same way?

 

Nice Sarcasm

I know you're denigrating John Thomas here, but he's a knowledgeable poster.

I don't think it's a stretch to say Page was the most talented of the crop, including Thomas, Tubbs and Witherspoon. Which is all Mr. Thomas and I said.

We didn't say Page was the best fighter or most accomplished of the group.