David haye vs James Toney

These are the keys. Toney would counter Haye and punish him. Jirov took so many hard right hands in that fight it was unreal. Additionally, Toney's chin is iron and I don't think Haye would be able to stop him.

I like Haye but prime Toney at Cruiser, and I'm talking about the version of Toney that busted up Adolpho Washington, would befuddle Haye and take a decision, say 116-112 or 117-111.

 

Is toney on roids or not.If hes on drugs I'd say toney,if not I'd say Haye

 

Oh one other thing I forgot.

Roy wasn't just fast hands, but his footspeed was also very quick. He was able to hit Toney and get out before Toney could find a counter. Haye throws and ends up standing in the middle after he's thrown. Which if you know Toney you know that's his area. He'd find Haye very easy to counter.

I really don't know where you get Toney being suspect to tall fighters. Considering the tallest guys he ever fought were Jirov and Guinn. Both very similar in size to Haye and both got beat decisively.

You needed good lateral movement. Well, not just good but FAST lateral movement as well as fast handspeed. Against the older Toney you just needed some kind of brute force to pin him for right hands. Which is what Sam Peter was able to do.

 

Good points Ambition.

I will add that you can't really take much from the Jones Jr. fight. Toney was completely weight drained and really not even at 50% his usual form.

The height issue: It's not height but style that lets Toney flourish. Jirov and Guinn both stood right in front of Toney and squandered their height, letting him counter at will.

The style that beats Toney has always been movement. When you stick and move and make him lead, he is much less effective. See the two Montell Griffin fights and even his Cruiser fight with the very mediocre Terry McGroom.

That formula also held true with the older, heavyweight version of Toney. Ruiz languished inside and Toney ripped him up. Peter is really the only heavyweight that gave just a bit of movement and a jab and it was enough to beat James convincingly.

 

Toney was scrawny at middleweight, you can't be serious about being a natural cruiser... What garbage. At cruiser he was slower and over weight, very noticeably compared to the version of him that fought at SMW. Go and watch some fights and judge for yourself. I never saw you touch on the point that Haye is a superior fighter to Thadzi and Griffin... Why is that? Haye is faster and a better technical boxer then Griffin, how do you see Toney SOMEHOW overcoming this when it has troubled him in the past? Where did i make any direct comparison to Roy JOnes JR? You have countered points that i have never actually raised....

 

Roy had absolutely NO problems landing on Toney except for the first round, he dominated him completely, what are you on? Not to mention Toney is fatter and slower at cruiser weight, and would be giving away a height and reach advantage. Meaning he would have to come in on Haye, something he did not like doing. In regards to Jirovs chin, Toney didn't actually knock him out, not sure what point you are making here... Toneys power at cruiser is simply not a factor. Then last of all, you have once again tried to put words in my mouth, saying i have compared Mormeck and Macca to Jirov. Where in my post did i do that? At least come up with a half way legitimate arguement next time FFS, this is ridiculous. Haye absolutely dominated these guys, who are still very good contenders, and better fighters then almost all the guys on both Jirovs and Toneys resume at cruiser. This shows that Haye is a top level fighter. Just because his overall resume doesn't stack up to Toneys, doesn't mean he can't win a head to head, when he has a heap of natural advantages.

 

Exactly, Toney suffers when you move. Against a technically good boxer, with good handspeed, reach and power like Haye, he would struggle. Look at the precedant. Haye would certainly not stand in the pocket with Toney, thats ridiculous.

 

Well said. Haye would not have the kind of movement needed to give Toney much trouble.

As for the comments above, Toney's best weight really was 190. He was not fat at that weight, but in shape and energetic due to not having to drain down 30 or 40 pounds to make an unnatural weight class.

His speed and skills were still there and his chin was more than ample at both Cruiser and Heavyweight. He was a unique talent.

 

But Montell Griffin wasn't a particularly good mover, yet he beat Toney twice. Being a mover on the level of Roy isnt' the key, i can't understand why everyone is so damn hung up on ROy jones here. You don't need to be Roy to beat toney. All you need to do is make him move, as toney needs to be planted to really be effective. He has under rated boxing ability YES, but against a quicker, longer opponent who is BETTER from distance he will certainly struggle. Haye doesn't need to KO toney, only to have enough power to get his respect. Haye certainly has enough in that regard.

 

No, Toney wasn't this unbelievable talent at cruiser, he just never fought the same level of competition he fought at the lower weights. Face it, the cruiser division was a joke when Toney was in it, Jirov being an exception. Even Jirov is hardly a world beater, solid yes, not fantastic. He is being over rated in this thread for sure. Haye is quick on his feet, very fast with his counter punches, and very explosive with his shots. He is certainly fast enough to out box James from the outside, no question.