David Tua vs Rocky Marciano

Two different weight classes by today's standards. The most Marciano weighed was approx. 188 pounds. That isn't even cruiserweight. That's even less than Roy Jones weighed when he beat Ruiz. Jones was at 199 pounds. On the other hand Marciano had no trouble taking Ali's punches during their computer promotional super boat and no punches were being pulled. Then again he got floored by little Archie Moore and Walcott and Tua seems to hit much harder. So the question really is could little Marciano handle that kind of power? In any case the fight wouldn't happen at the HW class today unless Marciano would bulk up like Roy Jones did.

 

it depends if it is produced with something previously unavailable to the time of the guy you compare him with from another time zone.

yes they could weigh 240. But would it be 240 of functional weight? CoUld it be achieved in a way Mackey shilstone claimed when he said "i put 25 pounds onto Michael Spinks but he's actually 1½ pounds leaner overall in fat content. His body fat dropped from 9.1 percent to 7.2 percent. That extra weight is all muscle. And he's faster."

not in America they haven't. The Americans towered over the rest of world until it levelled off in the 1960s. Why hadn't SHW taken over HW boxingby then? Populations may have grown around the world but the boxing community is not necessarily a microcosm of this.

that is fine and dandy. Most probably Marciano would do this, it is an option open to him in theory. I get that. But consider this. If Marciano was the size he was because of the era he fought in and another generation of fighters were the size they were because of Mackey shilstone type methods it is not outrageous to suggest the gap would be narrowed and there still would be no need for the CW division. The development of modern SHW would remain unnecessary. Theoretically all who became SHW could have remained traditional sized heavyweights.

if you can weigh 200 you might make SMW with 24 hour weigh in. That's how ****ed up it is now.

no in America proportionately there was a similar number of 6'3" guys in the population as there is now. The Difference being it took One more generations for changes in the sport to allow the 6'3" boxers to make a greater contribution to the division. Nobody knows why this was. My hunch These changes could be improvements in the standard of living, advances in training, bigger gloves and shorter rounds.

if they can I agree, why not indeed. But there is no ruling out that the reason a 240 guy can fight well for 12 rounds is down to changes in the sport

 

Men in different gyms have different methods to each other today.

It won't be the first time a fighter has said he's stronger at a higher weight. Men have been saying that since Fitzsimmons got sick of making the MW limit.

Based on what do you feel America has the highest average height in the world and they have stopped getting taller? SHW men have always been successful in the division. Carnera, Willard were all from many many years ago.

You say the development of the SHW is unnecessary. But the problem is 1)SHW is not a definable term. 2) why would any man give up his strength advantage when he doesn't need to? There is no weight limit at HW if a man can use his size he should use his size.

I don't know any SMW fighters that come in at 200 pounds.

There is no ruling anywhere about why a 240 man can fight for 12 hard rounds. I mean Whyte and Chisora were both knackered come round 9 of their fight. Wlad and Fury both averaged single figures for the the fight. These men fight at a slower pace because they are more bothered about using their natural size as an advantage.

Deontay Wilder has just weighed in at 222 pounds. Is he a SHW? Dereck Chisora is 30 pounds heavier than him.

 

The underlined is just ridiculously silly.

 

And you have a verified list of names?

 

All weight is "artficial" and determined by an individual's diet and lifestyle. Even bone growth is mostly a product of diet, and as people are better fed from birth post World War 2. weight has gone up overall. In the heavyweight division, size can trend, and fighters will intentionaly aim for weight that best suits their opposition.

Tua and Marciano turned pro with less than 10 pounds between them. Tua was surrounded by 220 plus pound men so he bulked up to push them. Marciano was surrounded 185 pound men so he cut down to chase them. Thats all there is to it.

 

I think Povetkin failed the test a few times.

 

Officially failing tests we have
Lucas Browne,
Tyson Fury,
Huey Fury,
Povetkin
, Stivern
Luis Ortiz,
eKran Teper,
Tony Thompson,

Just off the top of my head.

Then we have Tommy Morrison, Evander Holyfield and a swath of earlier fighters all linked to PED or growth hormone cheating.

Then there's the UFC champion Renzo Gracie who says "almost every MMA fighter is on steroids because the fact of the matter is, you can't compete at such a high level without them."

 

"This contrasts for example with men and women in the US, where the height of the nation's people started to plateau in the 1960s and 1970s. Over the century, they have seen increases of just 6cm and 5cm (a couple of inches), respectively.
Indeed, Americans have tumbled down the rankings. Back in 1914, they had the third tallest men and fourth tallest women on the planet. Today they are in 37th and 42nd place."


-john Amos BBC science corespondent

 

For starters having tall individuals is not a valid comparison.

That's like saying "the tallest person in England is a woman, therefore women are taller than men"

Secondly if other countries are increasing in height that explains why the HW scene is no longer dominated by America. Thanks for that find.

Solid evidence we have so far:

Rounds decreased by 20%
Fighters are given a 24 hour rehydration window
Men on average have gotten bigger
Countries on average have begun to overtake America

All of that leads sensibly to a conclusion that maximum division in boxing weighs more than previously andd contains more none Americans.

 

I know it's ridiculous.

 

There is evidence that the Americans dominated the heavyweight ranks for years. Up
Until about the year 2000.

There is evidence that the height of Americans plateaued between the 1960s and 1970s.

So where were the 6'6" Americans heavyweight in the 1940s, 1950s,1960s and 1970s and why had they not dominated the top of the division? We don't know why it was. Perhaps methods back then prevented taller boxers reaching their physical potential?

The biggest increase in weight has been the last 30 years after the Mackey shilstone methods made an impact.

Before that point is it that crazy to suggest physical performance was somewhat limited using older methods on the tallest and heaviest boxers?

There is also a unprecedented number of cases of factual evidence of top Heavyweights testing positive after years of heavyweights getting bigger and bigger.

It therefore is not unreasonable to suggest All this evidence points to changes in the sport that was not previously available rather than entirely being down to natural evolution of athletes and shorter rounds.

 

Well, it is silly and this article proves you right. My mistake. I had read about it somewhere.
https://www.theguardian.com/sport/blog/2012/nov/13/forgotten-story-rocky-marciano-muhammad-ali

 

Which 6 foot 6 American is at the top of the sport today dominating? Perhaps methods today stop an American of these measurements reaching his full potential.

Those methods helped a LHW beat a HW. The training Spinks did was to help a man who was not a HW compete with a man who was a HW. I've no idea why you think that relates to a SHW fighter.

There's cases of boxers testing positive in unprecedented numbers across all weight divisions. It's unprecedented because testing technology was extremely primitive and masking agents could be used.

Just accept that man is bigger than it used to be. It isn't a bad thing. The HW champion should be a behemoth.

 

Wilder would qualify today. He's at least 6'6". But I was referring not to Americas domination this century but last century. I think you knew this but have reached a dead end.

again, I think you know what I imply here. If a LHW can gain 25lb of solid muscle and make himself leaner than before (like Shilstone claimed) then a 220 guy can become a 245lb SHW who is also leaner all over can't he?

which actually asks the question of what went on before the testing technology was improved...presumably it is conceivable that everyone could get away with juicing for years and never get caught?

I do accept man got bigger. It is about two inches per century in the country that dominated HW boxing last century.