Dear JT apologists, Ouma IS an overrated fighter.

Discussion in 'World Boxing Forum' started by Amsterdam, Aug 23, 2007.



  1. IntentionalButt

    IntentionalButt Guy wants to name his çock 'macho' that's ok by me Full Member

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    Ams, maybe I missed something (I usually try to ignore Taylor fanboy posts, that might be why); I don't think I've heard anybody really overrate Ouma. He's certainly not going to be mistaken for an incredibly slick fighter, nor a very focused one, and he's definitely not a hard hitter. He's a guy with a real good chin and some guts, who leans toward high output. That's it. A formula that's enough to beat some B-levellers, and enough to slightly frustrate (in losing efforts) some A-level fighters. He lost to the vastly overrated B-level paper champ Taylor primarily because of the size differential and the fact that he doesn't have the right kind of style to overcome the physicality of a much bigger opponent. Were they naturally built to fight in the same weightclass (rather than at least two apart) Ouma would overwhelm and possibly even stop Taylor, who has yet to prove a chin at the world-class level - 36 rounds with murderous punchers Bernard and Winky notwithstanding. :yep
     
  2. Mrboogie23

    Mrboogie23 what the?? Full Member

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    We've talked about this a bit over the past week or so and you know that I dont disagree with some of the questions about JT. My problem is with people who insist on hating him for no legitimate reason. My whole point is that the guy deserves some respect because he's willing to fight anyone at anytime, regardless of what judges say, HBO says, fight fans etc. He is willing to fight the best he can.

    That deserves respect. I always get the feeling that people hate him because he hasnt won his fights in the fashion they feel he should. I can understand people getting frustrated with that also but again, he's one of those that is always willing to do better and he'll admit as much. Thats why I'm a fan of the guy. He's humble, willing to learn and improve and more then willing to fight anyone out there. I am still disagree that resumes dont matter. They do. I understand your point about judging based on ability style etc. I do the same thing, but resume has merit.

    Its also something to be looked at. I think you're partly mad at taylor because of the supposed hype he received right away, and the fact that youre a fan of Calzaghe and he's been around forever and received little to no hype. Thats fine but theres no reason for all the hate Taylor receives.

    As far as Taylor losing his fight with Pavlik, its also possible. Like I've told you before, I'm not too confident in Taylors chin and Pavlik can crack but I can also see Pavlik walking in and pressuring and eating hard jabs all night.
     
  3. Amsterdam

    Amsterdam Boris Christoff Full Member

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    Don't get me wrong, resume's MATTER greatly. What I meant was that some resume's are overrated do to big name factors and other are underrated due to the majority of western fans knowing little about the opponents.

    Calzaghe's resume is overall very good for example, specifically on how he won the majority of them also, his resume right now is on par or better than Kostya Tszyu, who is now regarded as a legendary fighter and I agree with that. People make comments like being competitive with Hopkins and Wright at this point blows away Calzaghe's resume... that's ridiculous.

    Let's step it up a notch though, Kessler's resume is also comparable if you really want to dig deep and he lacks a true big name at the moment, but if Kessler defeats Calzaghe, he'll recieve credit and will be ranked P4P of course, but it still will not have the same effect as HBO hype boy getting a gift over Hopkins and how people were high on Taylor at that point(because they overestimate what an older Hopkins can currently do), but it's since fizzled out with the Wright performance and the two horrible performances over Spinks and Ouma.

    This is all injustice to me. Guys like Kessler don't struggle with B level guys coming up from the lower weights, I am sorry. He never will also, as he's cleaned out the B level in his OWN weight class and has only lost 5 or 6 rounds total, now THATS impressive, but the winner of Kessler-Calzaghe is going to be given credit, but not the type that is deserved.

    I hope you understand what I mean now when I say 'overrated resume' and that 'set resume's' and 'set circles' are looking very shitty right now.

    I'll give you another example -

    Paul Briggs would have pasted Tarver, but Tarver chose the big name money fights(most people would), he dropped the titles to face the bigger names instead of the big threat. But the problem with Tarver being considered the best LHW is that he didn't face a guy who could have most likely pasted his ass.

    In that regard, Adamek vs. Briggs meant more to me than Tarver vs. Jones 3, but which one brought more regard?:yep
     
  4. Guru_Too_You

    Guru_Too_You ESB OG circa '99 Full Member

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    Amsterdam, let me get my morning coffee in me, and we'll continue.
     
  5. nervousxtian

    nervousxtian Trolljegeren Full Member

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    Waiting for the that reply Guru.

    Amsterdam, your probably is that you hold your opinion of who would destroy whom as gospel, when it's not fact, and you can't prove it.

    You bring up this hypothetical fights, but the truth is, you have no damn clue who'd win.

    Paul Briggs would of pasted Tarver? Yeah, whatever, that's based on nothing but your tossing names out to make Taylor look bad, but who gives a ****, Tarver fights 2 classes above Taylor.

    Let's talk about Middleweights, since that is the division he is currently and has fought in recently.

    You gonna start talking **** how Israel Vasquez ain't **** because he doesn't fight Pacman? Same ****.

    You can say Taylor is a Super Middle fighting at Middle, but that's bull****, he makes the weight, then he's a MW. If Calzaghe could make 160, he'd be a middleweight as well.

    Taylor uses the same scale everyone else at that weight class uses.
     
  6. Guru_Too_You

    Guru_Too_You ESB OG circa '99 Full Member

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    **** forgot all about this one.

    Have to happen when I get home from work.

    LOL, not the proper start to a Friday evening thats for sure.
     
  7. Amsterdam

    Amsterdam Boris Christoff Full Member

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    I come here to discuss boxing, I love boxing, I have fought amatuer and continue to train in boxing and the art of boxing, as well as the sport is one of my biggest passions, far more than the average fan.

    I'm not a nuthugger, I'm not a tool, I'm also not an expert, but I give it my best shot and I don't feel I'm biased, maybe you don't see the immense credit that I give where it is due.

    I have a great 'clue' of who is going to win in big fights always, the clue may not always be right, but when you have a 75% success rate, to the point where betting on this sport brings you extra income on a very consistent basis, then you start to have a feel where you can truly predict what's going to happen and I can do so 'fairly well'. I don't play ignorant with this sport, I can analyse styles, ability, intangibles and project a winner and most of the time I am correct, but not only correct, but perfectly on target.

    This is why I speak like an authority on these types of things, but I don't seek to insult other posters, I don't seek to come off as smug, I just like talking about boxing and I cannot help if you recieve it as smug, especially when I feel that I am 'onto something' and I wish to share it with everyone else so we all learn something together... likewise when I appreciate when someone enlightens me to something.

    I just cannot stand the close mindedness with this sport and it's ratings and Jermain Taylor is a prime example.

    Tarver was just an example of an 'overrated name', who fought within a circle of other 'name' fighters, staying away from true danger, like a young and hunry Paul Briggs.

    Let's do.

    This is not even close, you are really projecting your ignorance well and I normally would not call someone on this harschly, but you have sought to personally insult me because you don't agree with my analysis'.

    I thought I clearly said that 'Taylor is a SMW who is able to fight down at MW, which is good for him'. Taylor weighs in at 175 come fight night, Calzaghe weighs 175 come fight night, they are the same size roughly, the comparison of MW's-SMW's is as close as it gets.

    What does making weight have to do with comparable size? DLH made 130 early in his career, are you telling me he was not a 140 who was able to make 130 at that time?
     
  8. Guru_Too_You

    Guru_Too_You ESB OG circa '99 Full Member

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    I concur with the above.

    Get 'em Amsterdam.
     
  9. Amsterdam

    Amsterdam Boris Christoff Full Member

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    What do you think of Byron Mitchell vs. Taylor?

    Mitchell was robbed vs. Ottke, was able to press him decent late despite Ottke's running. Mitchell KOed a prime Manny Siaca, KOed Frankie Liles, who is a top 15 at SMW.

    Mitchell would land his KO shots on Taylor, would impose his size.

    See what I mean Guru? This is a stylistic comparison to where Byron Mitchell legitimately has a chance to KO Jermain Taylor and all I am trying to do here is legitimize that the SMW division is FAR superior to the current MW division.

    But I'll be fair, Mitchell doesn't beat Abraham(stylistic nastyness), but he has a decent chance vs. Pavlik due to comparable size.

    And then looking back, who in the hell would destroy Mitchell like Calzaghe did? When that happened Americans acted like Mitchell was just a crap fighter, when he actually had a very solid resume for the division at the time.

    So then ****ing Taylor scrapes by tiny Spinks and is of course criticised, but people write it off as 'any MW would look bad vs. Spinks'. I hate this **** so much and I can stop using Calzaghe as the example and use any underrated SMW in comparison to the very shallow MW division now, or I can use other underrated fighters who get no credit.
     
  10. Guru_Too_You

    Guru_Too_You ESB OG circa '99 Full Member

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    First, some one really has to knock Taylor out. He hasnt even been of his feet yet. Getting shook up is one thing, getting stopped or knocked unconscious is an entirely different thing.

    The Pavlik bout for me will answer a ton of questions about Taylor. If he can stand up to Pavlik and hand him an ass whooping, then to me, it legitimizes the entire run that Taylor has had.

    While at this point in time you pick Calz over Hopkins and Winky, do you think that he would look good in beating them? Do you feel that he would stop them?

    Pointing out that big punchers at SMW would starch Taylor only shows that you feel he will be easily knocked out. That in no way shows that the SMW division is far superior to the MW division. In fact, I feel the divisions are quite comparable at the elite level in current talent if you go P4P.
     
  11. Amsterdam

    Amsterdam Boris Christoff Full Member

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    He's about to get served a nice KO loss.

    Well that isn't going to happen mate.

    He's going to look great in beating Kessler, he'd especially look great in beating Wright and would stop Wright, but that's a size and styles thing that swings terribly against Wright as Winky's a LMW and lateral movement ****s him up, he'd get annihilated in there with Joe.

    I think that 'at this point' in Hopkins' career, he'd be shutout by Calzaghe. People don't like to hear that because Hopkins is such an icon and a great story, who isn't impressed by someone his age competing? But that means little against a guy like Calzaghe who's bringing the ferocious workrate, but behind a set of skills and experience that rivals the best.

    I pointed that out that Mitchell would have had a great shot vs. Pavlik, would have lost to Abraham, but would have sparked Taylor. Byron Mitchell was a top 5 at SMW in the early 2000's, one that Calzaghe recieves little credit for obliterating by the way, something that never happened as every top class fighter Mitchell fought, he was competitive with... anyway...

    And what I mean by that is that Mitchell is not on the current level of Kessler, Bute, Froch etc.

    I don't see the guys at MW beating those 3, much less Calzaghe, who's the reigning king.

    I'm a big fan of SMW - Kessler, Bute, Lacy - all of them, I like all of them, and I mean that truly. But I like them because they are all 'quality' around the general size...

    Unlike MW, where you have a hype job as the king, two solid but not great fighters in Abraham and Pavlik and then a mystery in Miranda as the top class, as well as Wright, who's on his last legs.

    Just my observation...
     
  12. Guru_Too_You

    Guru_Too_You ESB OG circa '99 Full Member

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    Like I said, this bout will serve a lot of answers. If he gets knocked out, then it shows he was in the right place at the right time with Hopkins and Winky.

    I do disagree regarding Calz-BHop. I still think this would be a competitive fight, but not for much longer, because Bernard seems to be aging faster than Calzaghe right now.

    How do you account for Joe's performance against Bika?

    I think that Joe, like Bernard, was in a division largely void of talent, and while Mitchell may have been a top 5 SMW, I was NEVER impressed with him, or many inhabitants of the division, berring Calzaghe and of late Kessler.

    I was on the Lacy hype train myself as well, but definitely thought he got the benefit of a quick stoppage against Vanderpool, some bogus help against Reid and was hurt badly against Sheika in their bout. I cant believe how blind I was.

    Still, I think that the fringe guys at SMW are overrated. Kessler is the goods, and even he may not stand a chance against Calzaghe. Its the same thing that happened during Hopkins reign. The real challenges were few and far between. Mundine has never impressed me, Lacy shouldnt have as much as he did. Andrade's in the mold of a Margarito, and to be honest I havent seen enough of Bute Froch and Inkin to comment properly regarding them.

    Still, I would have to give the slight edge to SMW in terms of talent, I will give you that. Abraham, Pavlik and Taylor are all good fighters, Miranda being the brawler, Duddy being the up and coming challenger. Sturm is decent but after those 6 fighters there is a bigger drop off than in SMW after 6.
     
  13. Amsterdam

    Amsterdam Boris Christoff Full Member

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    You admitted below that the Lacy train blinded you a bit. B-hop at 42 and competing is blinding for some in my opinion, he's really eroded and it hasn't shown it's ugly head because he's not fought a younger, fresher SMW-LHW that can deal with his experience. Wright's old too and Tarver is about at journeyman level at this point.

    Multiple things. Off night for one and little preparation(this is a problem with JC), he owned Bika first two rounds and then Bika went into intense amounts of excessive holding to stay in the fight and JC wasn't conditioned enough to out wrestle him. In my opinion, Bika should have been DQ'd, it was bad, John Ruiz like.

    Byron Mitchell was a B level guy, he wasn't impressive. Just a slow, solid boxer-puncher with 1 punch KO power. I'm saying Calzaghe dealt with him extremely well and even ate a massive temple shot and was up at 3. Then I provided logic that the MW's currently even out to about Byron Mitchells level, I think that's accurate.

    Lacy is a good fighter, he was hurt against Sheika sure, but it's not like Sheika can't hit either. Lacy's issue's were trying to load up and finish a guy too quickly and this lead to problems. But he was getting better and better, you'd expect at around 12-16 fights that he'd be flawed, the Reid win was an exclamation of where he was at, biased ref or not, he was owning Reid.

    Kessler is phenominal. Mundine is again not impressive per say, but he's better than the guys at MW for sure, look what he did to ****ing Soloman, who Wright struggled with. Bute is very solid, Froch is a nutter but one of those psycho fighters with power and speed.

    Andrade is B level, but all I stated that he'd have a damn good chance at slaughtering the MW's due to his pressure and their lack of pedigree like the SMW-LHW's have. Kessler dealt with Andrade in a beautiful shutout, like Calzaghe did Lacy, this is quality man.

    Taylor's ugly fight with a tiny Ouma can't compare to Kessler's punishing shutout of a superior larger man. It's absurd for Taylor to be ranked higher P4P than Kessler after his performances against Ouma and Spinks.

    I give a big edge to SMW, but it's also a division that I study deeper than you do and that's fine. I really watch the Euro and World scene, but the flipside is that my favourite fighters have generally been American and I hate euro-nut huggers.

    I just go for the fighters and call it as I see them.
     
  14. nervousxtian

    nervousxtian Trolljegeren Full Member

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    You write off the Bika fight so quickly, but can't forgive Taylor for the Spinks fight, and pretend like the Ouma fight was close, it wasn't.

    Hops is old, but Calzaghe himself has said he doesn't have many fights left in him. Calzaghe isn't and hasn't looked great since the Lacy fight, and really for most that is the fight that legitimized him, but the honest truth is that Calzaghe was always better than most gave him credit for, and Lacy wasn't as good as he was made out to be.

    I'm a Calzaghe fan, I like his fights, and I'd actually rather watch him than Taylor, but I appreciate what both have done, you can't.

    Your smugness comes from trying to state facts that are nothing more than your opinions.

    You're a smart guy, I can tell that. You just let hatred for fighters overcome you and you lose your senses.

    You want so badly for Taylor to get starched so you and Zakman can cheer about his chin, it really comes down to nothing more than this.

    It's just like your hatred for Khan, and Litzau. It's stupid and immature, and in the end, it weakens your other arguments where you're actually talking sense, and that's sad.
     
  15. Lance_Uppercut

    Lance_Uppercut ESKIMO Full Member

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    Ouma overrated? Last I saw, he wasn't seen as some super-world beating boxer, top P4P fighter, or great anything. If he's overrated, it's by fans on this site, and probably NOT as overrated as you and CJH's overrate Joe C. Give it a rest dude...you're turning into Jack Prescott Jr...